D&D 4E How to build encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace!)

[Vayden]

I've avoided grinding by giving level appropriate challenges or those level -1 or -2. Nothing turns a fight into a grind like introducing a party level + 3 soldier. Yawn! It goes on for ages. My players like to feel awesome. Then when they start to get confident they have a real level +1 or level +2 fight. Variation is exciting for them - figuring out how deadly the bad guys are.

Also, my 2 players have a monster hireling that helps shore up their lack of a defender.

Well, Rule #1 is know your party. If it works for you, I certainly am not going to critique it. Obviously you have a bit of a unique situation with only 2 PCs.

That being said, you're completely right that nothing slows down an encounter like a higher level soldier. When I advise building tougher encounters, I strongly urge you to go with the "more monsters" route instead of the "higher level monsters". Higher level monsters are fun occasionally, and there's nothing wrong with using N+1 or N+2 on a regular basis, but generally you want to use 2-3 N+1 instead of one N+3. The first reason for this is that it makes your monsters more effective (3 actions as opposed to one), and the 2nd reason is that it's more fun for your players to hit than to miss. It's almost always better to just have more hp (in terms of tweaking or using more monsters) than higher defenses.

 

[Vayden]

But in the end, you can prepare all you want, a good party will still desire to focus their attacks, despite how this can lead to a "less fun" battlefield or a boring grind against the BBEG when all his support has been stripped away.

I think Shilsen and MyISP both had good follow ups to this. I'd like to chime in and agree that it's perfectly fine if the players try and focus on one opponent. That frees you up to move the other opponents around and hammer on the wizards etc hiding in the back. If you make an encounter that only has one interesting opponent, and they make it boring by focusing on and taking down that one opponent, that's your own fault. I don't know if this is worth making into its own tip or not, but A) Use lots of monsters! and B) Use a good variety of interesting monsters so that the fight stays interesting even after half of them are dead.

I think the infamous Irontooth encounter from KotS is a good example of this being done well - Irontooth himself is a huge threat, and the players will be naturally inclined to focus on him, but the caster is deadly in his own right if left alone, with his fire attacks melting down anyone with a bad reflex defense, and the skirmishers, dragonshields, and minions are threats as well if they're ignored. It also has interesting terrain with multiple pathways to maneuver and attack from various sides, and the fact that it's just a little bit too tough has made it famous and the best remembered and most discussed portion of that adventure.

 

[knasser]

That being said, you're completely right that nothing slows down an encounter like a higher level soldier.

Firstly, this thread is great and I think I'm learning a lot from everyone who is posting here. I don't have much to add, but I'll comment on the above (I know I cut off all the qualifiers from the above statement, but I'm not disagreeing with it, so that's okay. : )

The above is true if you have two factions just trying to kill each other. But I try to avoid (as a general rule) scenarios where it's just arbitrary attempts to murder each other. It's not realistic a lot of the time. Who wants to risk life and limb just for the chance of inflicting the same on someone else? If you're battling a wave of skeletons, perhaps. A raiding party of goblins? Not so much... Most of my battles (though I've not been DMing long) are around achieving some particular aim. Interrupt the ritual, seize the idol and get out, sever the rope bridge and cut off the reinforcements, get the child to safety, etc. etc. etc. In any scenario like this, a higher level is soldier is not only appropriate, but preferable as they have the capacity to hand out damage and take the same, forcing the players to focus on achieving the real aim rather than just achieve success by the proxy of killing their enemy. Stand up fights, high level soldiers might be bad. Use them as part of an "achieve an objective" battle, and they're great. They're also fun in a scenario where there are some "I Win" buttons scattered about, e.g. pit traps, lava pools and anything else the PCs can use to circumvent an enemy's large hit point pool (obvious caveat being if the PCs can avoid the same tactics on them).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think that "smart play" can also do a lot to keep encounters interesting.

Generally, it seems the best idea to "focus fire" on one target. But this is not always the case. For example, if you have an encounter power that lets you immobilize an opponent, you need to choose your target carefully. For example, if there is no one in range of that enemy (melee reach or his ranged attacks), he is a good target to immobilize. Allies in melee with a immobilized target to make good if they move (or rather shift) away from it before its turn comes up. And so the guy with the immobilizing attack has to take his allies options (and its initiative) into account when deciding who to immobilize. If the Warlord and the Rogue are already flanking an opponent, immobilization is a waste. Your allies are in a good position already.
If you see some big melee brute is still a few squares away from your allies, he is a great target - he is basically neutralized for one round (it's basically almost as good as if you had dazed him!). If for some reason a Fighter is standing adjacent to an immobilized foe and is himself unable to move (immobilized, dazed), he might want to rely on his trusty Tide of Iron to push the enemy out of range before he can act, forcing him to waste a turn.
Immoblizing an Artillery monster is a good choice if your allies are already standing around it. But it's useless if it is still 15 squares away from them.

These examples just focused on powers that immobilize. (for example: Don't weaken someone that won't be able to attack) You can probably make similar tactical considerations for other conditions. And they all lead to you delaying your power use to the best opportunity and not just following a fixed script of powers.

I wonder if we should make a "How to beat encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace and TPKs!" thread. Or should it be more "How to run a PC quick, clean and effective (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace)"?

 

[shilsen]

I wonder if we should make a "How to beat encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace and TPKs!" thread. Or should it be more "How to run a PC quick, clean and effective (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace)"?

Not a bad idea at all, Archchancellor. Pick one and go with it. I'll certainly be reading and chiming in when I can.

 

[Zinovia]

This has been a great thread with a lot of useful advice in it. Thank you!

I am currently running a 4E game and have found the combats I've run to be too easy so far. My group seems to be both fairly well balanced as well as making sound use of tactics. They only just hit 2nd level, so I plan on stepping up the foes a notch and seeing if I can put some fear into the PC's (and get them to actually *use* more of their healing surges!).

Some of what has made the fights too easy is that I've had too few opponents in some encounters, or else the fight was by its nature staged in waves (reinforcements joining up after a couple rounds). It's clear to me that I need to pay more attention to the "economy of actions" by using more lower level opponents rather than fewer high level ones. I also need to make sure the foes have some good tactical options themselves. The PC's are good at working together and can probably outthink me when it comes to straight tactics. I need to use my DM powers to set things up with an advantage to the NPC's to start to make up for that, but so far haven't been very effective at it.

The next big encounter will be an ambush while they are inside a house in a remote area. I want to have a mix of foes - one big cleric dude who can heal his allies, some henchmen he hired, maybe a skirmisher/rogue type, and a couple guard drakes. I love guard drakes.

Since they will be in a house, I want there to be 2 doors that the bad guys will bust into simultaneously. One door leads from the outside to the pantry, with a trap door to the root cellar in that room. The PC's could open up the trap door if they want to create an obstacle (pit) and something to push people into. I'll have the usual large fieldstone fireplace in the main room/kitchen area, but it's pretty much just a house, so terrain can't be *too* interesting. I suppose if I have a pot of rendering fat over the fire, that could be spilled all over the floor to create a slippery area of difficult terrain. There will be 2 innocent bystanders present - one of whom can sort of defend himself, the other cannot. Hopefully the group will protect them and not simply allow them to be slain by the bad guys.

The PC's are: A human 2-handed weapon fighter, a genasi assault swordmage, an eladrin taclord, a halfling rogue, and a halfling feylock (all level 2). The taclord is very good at battlefield tactics, and is using his fey step to good advantage in most fights. He's setting up the rogue and fighter with some great flanking and bonuses. The swordmage is *not* very tactically oriented, and will often make suboptimal choices, but my objective is to keep her having fun with her character.

I want to make this a challenging fight where they need to think on their feet and pull out all the stops. Any recommendations?

 

[shilsen]

I want to make this a challenging fight where they need to think on their feet and pull out all the stops. Any recommendations?

Is there anything specific the NPCs want in the house? Otherwise, especially with it being in an isolated area, the first thing that occurred to me is to have the NPCs set the place on fire at night and smoke the PCs out. Then you have a situation where the PCs are deciding which door to get out of (maybe both, which means splitting the party), then have to get out past the tripwires and other obstructions the enemies can set up at the doors, and then fight their foes in the field and amongst the undergrowth in the darkness lit by the flames of the burning house. Lots of options for fun, I think, and having the NPCs forcing the PCs to come to them means they can control the battlefield and make the PCs quite miserable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not a bad idea at all, Archchancellor. Pick one and go with it. I'll certainly be reading and chiming in when I can.

Done. http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...fective-forked-thread-prevent-grindspace.html

 

[shilsen]

Done. http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...fective-forked-thread-prevent-grindspace.html

And posted

 

[Alikar]

1i) Wizards

Happy Wizard: Minions, anything vulnerable to their attacks (esp fire)
Sad Wizard: Solos, things with resistances (esp fire).

I think your missing the fact that a wizard can create a large amount of conditions on something like a solo. Not to mention a coordinated party loves a well planned wizard against a solo, especially flying ones.