D&D (2024) How to fix multiclassing?

[Amrûnril]

There are definitely some balance issues with a la carte multiclassing. Some abilities are too strong as a one or two level dip (eldritch blast, rage). Some higher level abilities are too painful to forgo (extra attack, high level spellcasting). But the system gives an amazing level of customizability, and I think that getting rid of it instead of refining it would be a huge mistake.

Sometimes a player has in-character reasons to add a class they weren't planning on, or to stop taking levels in a previous class. Any system that requires a fixed choice at early levels of that requires an even division of levels isn't going to work in those cases. And the process itself of combining levels from multiple sources to realize a distinct character concept is fun for a lot of players..

I also think that finding compelling combinations of subclasses is one of the most interesting elements of multiclassing. A Moon Druid multiclass and a Wildfire Druid multiclass are completely different, both mechanically and thematically, and a system that didn't allow that sort of choice would be a huge step backwards.

All that said, I think providing multiclass-like options through feats or subclasses is a great idea, I just think it's important that these be alternatives to the current multiclassing system, rather than replacements.

 

[Horwath]

No to all of this. MC works fine with the exception of warlock. Maybe tune things there and most cheese goes away.

1 or 2 levels of warlock is the main offender here.
but there is quite a lot of 1-3 level dips that are cheese here.

fighter: 1 or 2 levels with full caster. heavy armor, con saves, possible 2 spell casting actions in 1st round.

paladin 2 with full Cha caster or warlock, keep those smites coming

various level 1 or maybe 2 levels of cleric, depending on subclass

some sorcerers give good 1st level bonuses, especially to a another full caster, after that you can forget that you are 1st level sorcerer.

barbarian level 2 for any melee build, possible 3rd level for bear totem.

ranger is meh, probably only 3rd level for Gloomstalker

rogue is great as 1st level starter for many combos, 2nd level only if you REALLY need that cunning action. 3rd level Assassin only for some unholy Assassin/gloomstalker/battlemaster alpha striker abomination.

 

[payn]

1 or 2 levels of warlock is the main offender here.
but there is quite a lot of 1-3 level dips that are cheese here.

fighter: 1 or 2 levels with full caster. heavy armor, con saves, possible 2 spell casting actions in 1st round.

paladin 2 with full Cha caster or warlock, keep those smites coming

various level 1 or maybe 2 levels of cleric, depending on subclass

some sorcerers give good 1st level bonuses, especially to a another full caster, after that you can forget that you are 1st level sorcerer.

barbarian level 2 for any melee build, possible 3rd level for bear totem.

ranger is meh, probably only 3rd level for Gloomstalker

rogue is great as 1st level starter for many combos, 2nd level only if you REALLY need that cunning action. 3rd level Assassin only for some unholy Assassin/gloomstalker/battlemaster alpha striker abomination.

None of that bothers me. I think you have a real hang up about anything that isnt a strict 1 for 1 class spilt. Which is fine, but not what most folks want.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think, it is a soultion wanting for a problem...

Most people agree, that a 3/X split is usually neither overpowered nor underpowered. 1/X splits are only problems in a few cases, where the subclass at level 1 is way over the top.

Most people agree, that even splits are usually horrible.

So why not just leave it be and put subclass choice at level 3 to preven 1 or 2 level dips that are over the top.

With 3/x splits, you can usually build any concept. And if you really want a 3 or more class split, it is mostly for flavour, not for power.

So, please no. Don't invent a problem and fix it with feats... This is what 3.0 did...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

1 or 2 levels of warlock is the main offender here.
but there is quite a lot of 1-3 level dips that are cheese here.

fighter: 1 or 2 levels with full caster. heavy armor, con saves, possible 2 spell casting actions in 1st round.

paladin 2 with full Cha caster or warlock, keep those smites coming

various level 1 or maybe 2 levels of cleric, depending on subclass

some sorcerers give good 1st level bonuses, especially to a another full caster, after that you can forget that you are 1st level sorcerer.

barbarian level 2 for any melee build, possible 3rd level for bear totem.

ranger is meh, probably only 3rd level for Gloomstalker

rogue is great as 1st level starter for many combos, 2nd level only if you REALLY need that cunning action. 3rd level Assassin only for some unholy Assassin/gloomstalker/battlemaster alpha striker abomination.

Eldritch blast will surely get fixed.
Double spellcasting with actions surge will probably also go.
Bear totem barbarian is great, but there are other barbarian subclasses that are equally good (including other totems).
Paladin + warlock is already not intended by the rules and by strict reading of the rules not working: look at treant monks video about trdsic vs raw. The first printing of the PHB used the phrase: "paladin spell slots", which telegraphed the intention. That just leaves hexblades, which will in some form will be errated, even if it is just pushing it back to level 3, at which point you can as well just increase str.

 

[mellored]

1 or 2 levels of warlock is the main offender here.

Is it though?

Is a Paladin with a decent ranged attack that much better than a paladin 10 with aura of courage and revivify? Is it worth giving up summon celestial?

Is a Bard with a better contrip going to outshine one that has an extra spell level?

Is a Sorcerer with at-will damage better than one who has wish for 2 extra levels?

but there is quite a lot of 1-3 level dips that are cheese here..

There is also a lot of sacrifice.

I'm sure you can pick a certain level where multi-class is more powerful. But a level before or after later and the straight class is better again.

IMO, that means it's balanced.


Moon druid just needs fixed in general. Not an issue with multi-class.
My house rule for it is to do double the CR of other druids, and elemental form just takes 1 wild shape.

 

[tetrasodium]

Is it though?

Is a Paladin with a decent ranged attack that much better than a paladin 10 with aura of courage and revivify? Is it worth giving up summon celestial?

Is a Bard with a better contrip going to outshine one that has an extra spell level?

Is a Sorcerer with at-will damage better than one who has wish for 2 extra levels?

There is also a lot of sacrifice.

I'm sure you can pick a certain level where multi-class is more powerful. But a level before or after later and the straight class is better again.

IMO, that means it's balanced.

1-2 levels of warlock gives the paladin/sorcerer a 120ft range force damage charisma based attack that scales as the fighter extra attack. In the case of paladin/hexblade it also likely allows them to use charisma for weapons so they can mostly dump strength & go cha/con/whatever. That's not simply "a decent ranged attack". Likewise for the sorcerer it's not simply "a better cantrip" at the cost of a single spell level. If the game goes far enough into tier2 or into tier3+ the sorcerer gets that relabeled charisma based fighter extra attack with free knockback that converts royghly to an at will 4th or 5th level spell at the forgettable price of what is likely a single spell slot too.

 

[Gadget]

I never been a fan of al a carte multi-classing since its introduction in 3e. It is an example of D&D, as a class based system at its core, both wanting its cake and eating it too. More 'point by' type systems allow far more flexibility and mix and matching when building a character, but at the cost of some complexity and balance problems. I would say that most of the 'broken' or 'over-powered' builds/exploits I have seen have had some form of multi-classing as part of their issue.

I would like to have some combination of feats, sub-classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, etc. give us most of what multi-classing can do, but without the balance problems. It probably won't satisfy everyone, but I don't think anything will.

 

[Pauln6]

Eldritch blast will surely get fixed.
Double spellcasting with actions surge will probably also go.
Bear totem barbarian is great, but there are other barbarian subclasses that are equally good (including other totems).
Paladin + warlock is already not intended by the rules and by strict reading of the rules not working: look at treant monks video about trdsic vs raw. The first printing of the PHB used the phrase: "paladin spell slots", which telegraphed the intention. That just leaves hexblades, which will in some form will be errated, even if it is just pushing it back to level 3, at which point you can as well just increase str.

Eldritch Blast was taken off the arcane spell list, and making this a class feature might help some of the cheese. The could even make it a standard cantrip with an invocation that allows you to split the dice into multiple bolts, so a 2 invocation dip is needed to score multiple stat bonuses on blasts.

I think converting spell slots to smites should be removed entirely or linked to channel divinity but if they keep the rule that crits only affect weapon dice, not additional dice, doesn't most of the cheese go away? Did the first packet address crits on spell attacks?

 

[aurvay]

that could also work.

but that approach maybe would be better worked with feats.

feats.
rogue training: 4th level,
+1 ASI
gain +1d6 sneak attack, gain one expertise.
you can gain this multiple times, but only once by rogue

Extra attack: requires 8th level
+1 ASI
gain Extra attack feature, this does not stack with extra attack gained from class.

healing hands: 4th level,
+1 ASI
gain lay on hands, but only 3HP per character level if taken by paladin

practiced spellcaster: 4th level, cannot be full spellcaster
pick a full spellcasting class.
+1 ASI
gain 2 levels of spellcasting in that class.
you can gain this feat multiple times

metamagic adept: 4th level
+1 ASI
learn one metamagic
gain sorcery points equal to your proficiency bonus.
can be taken two times. But only once by sorcerer.

yes.

this would also work. like that feat in Tasha’s that grants metamagic ability.

anything would actually work better than the actual multiclassing rules to curb power gaming at the table.