How to get into a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

[N'raac]

I never realized it was two-way. Yeah, that's nasty although I would be inclined to rule that you can't exit but you're deposited back there anyway when the spell runs out.

While I would rule the same way, there's no reason the players need to know that until time runs out. Maybe the fate of any within when time runs out is not well known (or not known at all).

 

[lunasmeow]

Genesis grows the plane at a cubic foot per day and is not one level higher, but two levels higher. It can't create living things (like food) and can't create structures. But you're saying that Magnificent Mansion, at two levels LOWER, creates 3000 cubic feet of new plane in a standard action and populates it with food and structure? And you don't think that sounds unbalanced? I see Genesis as confirmation that Magnificent Mansion surely can't possibly create its own plane.

Rope trick says nothing of creating extradimensional space - only that the rope reaches into extradimensional space.

A portable hole does say it "causes an extradimensional space to come into being", but it also describes a kinship with bags of holding (which don't have that language) that squarely connect their activities to the astral plane. I even remember something from some TSR publication long ago about Astral travelers being able to sense bags of holding and portable holes though I don't recall the specifics.

The links to Pathfinder's Create Demiplane are a stronger argument, especially since its a lower level spell. But again, it takes hours to create a comparable-sized space and the space is featureless and sterile. Magnificent Mansion takes a standard action and comes with food and structure. I can't see any way to justify saying that it also creates the plane it exists on. Certainly not in a standard action.

Bringing this back up because my current group is having the same type of issue.

Wouldn't making a temporary plane and a permanent plane be the key difference though? Permanent planes exist forever, even beyond the life of the caster. A temporary warping of space/time vs a permanent one, should certainly explain the difference in both length of casting, and in the higher level required for this and those permanent abilities.

Also, this creates a standard mansion. Something pre-defined by the spell. These other abilities allow you to create the type of plane you desire. So it's automation VS innovation. Creating something that you can put together using a mold to make the parts, instead of designing the parts piece by piece and fitting them together by hand.

A counter argument would be helpful in allowing me to make a decision on this. Thanks!

 

[Marshall Gatten]

I just have to say: This is the best thread ever, in the history of best threads ever.

I'm swamped at the moment and can't possibly take the time to think about and/or rebut anything on this, but I will say your arguments sound very good to me. I think the lesson to take away is that even Rules As Written have to be interpreted and are going to be implemented slightly differently at each table. The only place it matters, really, is in a tournament-style game - in which case the tournament director is going to have a real headache with this one.

 

[Celebrim]

Personally, I've always been really bugged by the fact that most of the spells in D&D are balanced not by internal logic, but by how useful they are presumed to be in the context of D&D's default dungeon crawling game. For many spells, this isn't really a problem but for a few spell - Mount, Mord's Mansion, etc. - it just bugs the heck out of me.

In one sense, Mord's Mansion is the single most powerful spell in the core game, in that it does something I'd be hesitant to allow a Wish to do - grant free access to a perpetually safe, well stocked, nearly undetectable fortress, which is always accessible wherever you go. It even does things that arcane magic doesn't normally do well - like provide for perpetually abundant high quality food. (The food itself would be economy wrecking if the mage ever bothered to take it out and sell it, as just one usage represents more economic output than the daily production of a small town.) Generally my games end well before this becomes a problem - I've played 100+ sessions over 4 years in my current campaign, and the party just hit 7th level. But preemptively I've made Mord's Mansion a 9th level spell that requires a one time ritual to create the Mansion in the first place. This ritual costs XP and in addition to setting up your initial private dimension, makes a bargain with a powerful extraplanar being capable of furnishing and maintaining the Mansion - basically every time you or a visitor use the mansion, you agree to serve the extraplanar being for an equal amount of time in the afterlife. Color, but interesting. This explains what I find otherwise completely inexplicable - how in the world a mere mortal magician conjures all this into being without spending serious quintessence (XP) every time he does.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It even does things that arcane magic doesn't normally do well - like provide for perpetually abundant high quality food. (The food itself would be economy wrecking if the mage ever bothered to take it out and sell it, as just one usage represents more economic output than the daily production of a small town.)

I certainly wouldn't allow the food to be removed from the mansion--I would say it vanishes if you attempt to take it outside the area of effect of the spell.

 

[Celebrim]

I certainly wouldn't allow the food to be removed from the mansion--I would say it vanishes if you attempt to take it outside the area of effect of the spell.

Why? I mean, I understand why you are making this ruling, but how logically is the food nourishing if when you leave it disappears? If the stuff is illusionary or made of 'plane stuff' that only exists on the plane, what good is it for you and surely it would be dangerous to eat? Is the stuff in your stomach or in your limbs made more real by being there? Why? What magical rules govern this behavior?

I really dislike when spells don't seem to have any internal logic.

 

[lunasmeow]

This is my problem too. I want my game to be *logical*. Unfortunately this is only my second P&P D&D game, my experience with D&D is from old 1st and 2nd edition games on pc and NES. Other than that... Baldur's Gate. That's it. And based on this they made me the DM lol. I'm still having trouble balancing things like exp and loot! Let alone structuring the rules to have them make internal logical sense!

 

[Greenfield]

Gate should work.

What's the name of the Plane? "Introp's current Magnificent Mansion". As in, just give a precise and unique location. Currently you could say "The Gates of the City of Dis" or "The Gates of the city on the 5th Plane of Hell", and they'd get you to the same place. So long as the place you "name" accurately and uniquely targets the desired location, you're good.

I wouldn't rule out Plane Shift over the distance thing, but something attuned to the plane is a definite show stopper.

 

[lunasmeow]

But wasn't there the whole problem of the "owner" of the plane being able to refuse entry via Gate? I'd definitely say that Introp would be the "owner" of "Introp's current Magnificent Mansion".

 

[Greenfield]

Not the "Owner", the "Ruler". Not exactly the same thing. I tend to read "Ruler" as referring to some deific power, someone who has actual control over what goes on there.

The caster of a Magnificent Mansion defines the physical shape and accoutrements at casting time, and can command the Unseen Servants that come with it, but that's the extent of their "Rule". No actual control over the plane itself once the spell is cast.