How to kills a dragon... Help with a Warforged Juggernaut build?

[Imaginari]

[MENTION=6678119]Jackinthegreen[/MENTION]

WoW-style tank can kind of work using various things, but it can be difficult to do if your DM isn't humoring you on a tank build. If a monster finds its attacks aren't really hitting a target that isn't doing much damage to it (usually called a turtle), but another target that's squishy is hitting it for a lot, chances are the monster is going to attack the squishy character because attacking the well-armored character not being much of a threat could get it killed by the squishy, and it's usually in the monster's best interests to live.

Yup, I'll again clarify what I posted above. I didn't mean "tank" is in MMO play style, just rather a heavy front line fighter that can take a beating. Though I appreciate the suggestions on how possibly to achieve a WoW-style tank.

Another form of tanking is called Battlefield Control. Basically you make it difficult or impossible for an enemy to harm you or your group. Martial types usually go for a Lockdown build that prevents opponents from moving and taking actions. This is often achieved through things like Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, plus a reach weapon. Tripping using Improved Trip and Knock-down can also limit enemies.

Battlefield control is great and I love it. But I question it's usefulness against a dragon. Thought perhaps according to RAW you can trip a massive creature, I don't see the DM going for it. Granted there will be occasions to mass combat, but dragons tend to be singular opponents with opportunity attacks might be less likely. Though I'm open to counter arguments haven' not fought all that many dragons.

I imagine a construct could use welds and such to mimic scarring for Runescarred Berserker. Focused heat like from a blow torch could also work. @Imaginari , the Runescarred Berserker can be found in Unapproachable East if you're interested in looking at it.

Yup, I think the imagery would be pretty cool tool. I imagine the downside here is you really need to focus on casting if you're going to go this route, correct?

If you're worried about not being in control of a Frenzied Berserker, you might not want to play one. Yes, the damage can be phenomenal, but chances are you'll be able to do enough damage and such without it.

Personally the coolest aspect of frenzied berserker to me isn't the power attacks and str (though cool as well), but rather the "deathless frenzy". A dragon can do as much damage as he can dish and still not take the character down. Granted the character might not live at the end of the encounter. But I do at least want to avoid killing my party members should I go that route.

If you really want something insane though, you might look at Martial GOD (or how to be BSF and GOD at the same time). Basically the non-cheesy parts of that build use the Bloodstorm Blade PrC from ToB along with Knock-down and Knockback to throw melee weapons around while tripping and bull rushing opponents to move them around and keep them down. The primary cheesy part is Boomerang Daze with a generous interpretation of the Aptitude weapon enhancement in ToB (page 148) that allows one weapon to count as another for purposes of feats. Even if the Dazing stuff isn't allowed, throwing weapons around to trip and bull rush opponents is quite useful.

This is a cool suggestion and build. Read my next post and let me know if you still think it makes sense.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I still hold by my theory that it's actually Asmodeus trying to get a foothold in reality. Only way to explain how something so vile could exist.
Despite it being a very clear part of the rules and 3.5's greatest strength in the game? Oh, god, that's even worse than core-only.
People actually use that rule? It's second only to the Alignment system as the most idiotic rule in 3.5.
It also requires you to be a caster, and if you're a caster, your mental stats are probably too high for you to even consider using that pathetic excuse for a spell.
The issue is that that kind of build doesn't work past level eight or so. It's too easy to just basically deny any build like that, and tripping really falls apart around there due to massive strength and inflated hit dice of any monster that's actually threatening.

But, meh, I'm just jaded, I guess, similar to how I recommend against anyone wasting money on AC.
Nope, although the Ring of Anticipation is worth noting as one of the best items in the game for its price. I'm talking about the... hell, I can't remember its name, the immediate action teleport cloak. It's only. what, 5500, and shuts down any chargers handily.
Oh, hey, that's kinda a cool idea. I hadn't thought of that.
I do believe the traditional way to evade the problem with that is to just burn all your frenzies in the beginning of the day. I mean, it's not like you actually care about frenzy, the reason you'd ever consider taking FB is for the Power Attack.
Aptitude abuse? Ugh, that's... I dunno, it's blatantly cheesy, and not even in an interesting, funny, or particularly cool way.

Also, if you're abusing it, you should just go balls-out. What's the point of blatantly abusing poorly-written rules if you don't do it with style?

I guess I'll reply from the bottom up since I'm not very keen on multiquoting at the moment. I might warm up to it though.

Never seen that Gun-Fu build before, but I'll take a look at it if only to get a nice laugh at how broken it might be.

Even without aptitude cheese for the daze and ricochet, the build does have some fun uses since not needing to be in melee to use knockdown and such is quite nice.

Frenzy is still useful for the strength (and thus accuracy and damage) boost, but I agree the boost to PA from simply being in the class tends to be the better feature. Although some DMs do allow a character with the Righteous Wrath feat to be able to distinguish friends from foes, but that's definitely a houserule.

Ah, now I see what you were referring to. The item is the Shadow Cloak. For 5,500g, it's likewise a great buy.

Depending on how far one takes knockback and knockdown they'd still be somewhat useful. Size increases certainly help in this regard, and since the build can do it at range (quite a long range at that due to doubling the throw distance a couple times) there is a buffer.

Yeah, it's a generally crappy spell. I made a thread about it on MMB asking if it could be optimized and one of the suggestions was the Nightmare Spinner adaptation published in Complete Mage which would allow it to ignore immunities to enchantment spells like the Dread Witch from Heroes of Horror can ignore things immune to fear.

Adaptation
The nightmare spinner class is designed as an illusion specialist, but it could work just as well with an enchantment specialty, since most spells from that school are also mindaffecting.
Such a character probably would not have an evil bent, and the class abilities could be modified to allow him to charm or dominate creatures that are usually immune to such spells.

I wouldn't say alignments are idiotic rules since they have created interesting debates on what alignment and such actually entails which leads into questioning morality itself and the basis for how we come to think about things the way we do. But that's not something some games can or want to explore, so cutting (or tweaking) alignment can certainly be useful. Multiclass XP penalties are definitely idiotic though, yes. Not all character ideas can be realized with one or even two classes.

lol, I would hope Asmodeus would be intelligent enough to use a better foothold than an easily forgotten/taken down website.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

@Jackinthegreen

Yup, I'll again clarify what I posted above. I didn't mean "tank" is in MMO play style, just rather a heavy front line fighter that can take a beating. Though I appreciate the suggestions on how possibly to achieve a WoW-style tank.

Battlefield control is great and I love it. But I question it's usefulness against a dragon. Thought perhaps according to RAW you can trip a massive creature, I don't see the DM going for it. Granted there will be occasions to mass combat, but dragons tend to be singular opponents with opportunity attacks might be less likely. Though I'm open to counter arguments haven' not fought all that many dragons.

Flying (more specifically, winged) creatures can actually be tripped. The Rules Compendium has this to say on it:

Tripping a Flying Defender
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can trip an opponent only if it is up to one size category larger than you. You can’t trip a burrowing creature, an incorporeal creature, a swimming creature, or a creature that doesn’t rely on limbs for locomotion.
...
A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn’t maintain its minimum forward speed. See Fly, page 92.

So you could trip a dragon up to one size category larger than you if it's flying. That's one of the nice things about using Bloodstorm Blade with Knockdown is you don't need to engage in melee with them. If it's on the ground it'll have a harder time being tripped since having 4 or more "legs" means it gets a +4 on defending against trips and such, but it can be done. Psychic Warrior could serve you well in that regard since Expansion would make you larger. If you already started at Large, going up two categories would make you Gargantuan, which is enough to trip the largest colossal dragons. And you know what they say: The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

I should probably have used a different term. I mean "tank" simply to mean a front line fighter can take a whole lot of punishment and still keep on fighting. I didn't mean it in the MMO sense of maintaining aggro.

Taking hits doesn't work very well. Not getting hit is a much better option.

Well thanks at least for the cander. It was my first pass. I'm open to better suggestions if you have them, assuming they fit the requirements. But more in my follow-up post below.

Chargers are just fragile in that they're easy to shut down.

I actually considered the Runescared Berserker, but didn't necessarily want to drop Warforged Juggernaut. What makes it cool from your perspective.

Well, among other things, their pseudo-casting and amazing list. I mean, look at it. They've got a huge number of "no" buttons, some of the nicest buffs in print at the time, and even AMF, should you need it. It's just a combination of nothing but highly desirable traits that let you cover every weakness.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

No problem at all.

Battlefield control is great and I love it. But I question it's usefulness against a dragon. Thought perhaps according to RAW you can trip a massive creature, I don't see the DM going for it. Granted there will be occasions to mass combat, but dragons tend to be singular opponents with opportunity attacks might be less likely. Though I'm open to counter arguments haven' not fought all that many dragons.

You can trip massive creatures, they just get bonuses that, when combined with their massive strength scores, make even trying pointless.

Yup, I think the imagery would be pretty cool tool. I imagine the downside here is you really need to focus on casting if you're going to go this route, correct?

Not really. Your good spells don't have any DC whatsoever, so all you need is a wisdom of 15. You can use magic items to achieve that.

Personally the coolest aspect of frenzied berserker to me isn't the power attacks and str (though cool as well), but rather the "deathless frenzy". A dragon can do as much damage as he can dish and still not take the character down. Granted the character might not live at the end of the encounter. But I do at least want to avoid killing my party members should I go that route.

If an enemy is capable of making that ability seem worthwhile, the ability isn't going to be of much help.

Also, Solid Fog says "no" to that.

Even without aptitude cheese for the daze and ricochet, the build does have some fun uses since not needing to be in melee to use knockdown and such is quite nice.

I think this works better, even despite it lacking ToB.

Ah, now I see what you were referring to. The item is the Shadow Cloak. For 5,500g, it's likewise a great buy.

Yep. Unfortunately, I, at least, work my WBL tight enough I frequently don't have enough to afford it.

I wouldn't say alignments are idiotic rules since they have created interesting debates on what alignment and such actually entails which leads into questioning morality itself and the basis for how we come to think about things the way we do. But that's not something some games can or want to explore, so cutting (or tweaking) alignment can certainly be useful.

There are a couple of issues. First, I cringe at the mere thought of objective morality. Second, by the rules, everyone in the world is irredeemably evil for not going on suicide rushes into the Hells.

lol, I would hope Asmodeus would be intelligent enough to use a better foothold than an easily forgotten/taken down website.

I don't think anything else except 4chan is a vile enough perversion of all that is good and, well, in touch with reality to allow him through.

Hey... That actually explains a lot.

 

[Imaginari]

Okay, let me give a bit more backstory, perhaps to provide a direction for the build that isn't purely mechanical. I'll also point out some specific advantages my DM has granted and my goals for the build below. The challenge for me is trying to find or figure out a cool build that means these goals.

Backstory
The character I'll be playing was constructed by one dragon for the express purpose of killing another dragon. He was designed and built purely as a weapon. (And though I'm building the character with normal "levels" for balance, he was likely built at his current level rather than having lived and gained xp through the normal leveling process.) He started life as a construct, but was at some point granted a soul by the dragon he was meant to kill. After he gained his soul and his own freewill, he wondered into the world. Years and years passed, and the world changed, though he did not age. Now his creator wants him dead. And there is a high chance he will at some point fulfill his mission of killing a dragon.

You might now see why playing a warforged might fit, particularly a Juggernaut which is far more construct like. And perhaps also why I was considering the half-golem template, though I agree that it might not be worth the +3 LA.

Mechanics
The DM has allowed me to make a large character. My first thought was get to "large" by using a permanency spell, but this has the disadvantage of being dispel-able which could suck. The DM had an alternate suggestion. He has allowed me to create a Huge character with a permanent "reduce person" on him, so he's the more manageable size of large. This has a number of cool things about it. First it would be great fun to play a large character. Second, if it does get dispelled, he just get larger, which will of course be good and bad, but will definitely lead to fun role-playing. Lastly, using the Monster Manual size advancement charger, this would provide a huge stat bump (+16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, +5 Natural Armor, -2 AC/Att ) at the cost of +2 LA which the DM okay'ed, minus of course the "reduce person" stat changes back down to size large.

As for classes, I have 16 lvls to play with.

Goals
1) He should be designed to fight dragons, both offensively and defensively. For example, flight will likely be important (from a magic item?), and trip might be less useful for example.
2) He should be designed to take advantage of his large size and stat bonuses. Power attack is an obvious example here. But not necessarily required.
3) He needs to be able to wield a two-handed weapon as part of his build or attack. This relates more to an cool story item in the game, but also who can argue against a large warforged with a polearm perhaps? This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it dovetails well with goal 2.
4) He should fill a front line fighter role. The rest of the party is slight squishy and someone needs to be able to go toe-to-toe or at least.
5) He should be somewhat construct like. This can be achieved perhaps through story and description, but it can't hurt if he shared some construct traits.

That all said, I'm open to any ideas and suggestions for directions or builds. Several good ones have already been listed above that could be adapted. I don't know anything about the ToB and many have said it is very useful. I have some reading to do here. Things that dovetail with the Juggernaut class was my first approach, but I'm open to other ideas and approaches for fighters. I also considered classes like Warhulk, but ended up not going that route, though again, I'm open.

Questions?

~imagainari

 

[Jackinthegreen]

If you were looking at War Hulk, keep in mind there is errata for it and Miniatures Handbook found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031030x. Mostly it just clarifies that Mighty Swing is an attack action, not a standard action. Full attack several squares! And you can negate the loss of BAB by using a weapon with the Skillful enhancement from Complete Arcane, page 144.

You'll want to look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851 for some ideas on getting flight for the character.

Other weapon enhancements that might interest you are the Dispelling and Dragondoom enhancements in the MiC, page 33. If you have a backup ranged weapon, the Dragonhunter enhancement on the same page might be useful. The Magebane enhancement from Complete Arcane page 143 might also be a good bet.

Is the character already immune to a dragon's Frightful Presence? If not, you'll want to get him immune to fear effects and such. I don't have any suggestions for that off the top of my head though, sorry.

Edit: Whoops. Looks like WFJ grants immunity to mind-affecting stuff, which would mean no worries about fear effects from anyone except a Dread Witch. And speaking of WFJ, getting Knockback with it would actually be nicely synergistic due to Superior Bull Rush, which allows it to add its armor spike damage plus strength mod onto any bull rush. Now I'm reminded of a build combining Knockback with Dervish to amusing effects.

 

[Imaginari]

Thank Jackinthegreen for the suggestions. The link to essential magic items was great help.

I also like the idea of using getting the Knockback feat. I'm trying to decide which path to go, Knockback, Shocktrooper, and/or Combat brute.

I've been reading some more about the Crusader and I've been trying to think of a way to combine Crusader with Juggernaut. I'm not sure if I should dip into any other ToB classes.

Thanks,

dana.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Was there anything specific to Crusader that you thought might work for this build?

 

[Imaginari]

Thanks for the reply. I'm been busy trying to decide on builds and feats and items. Currently I'm planning something like Barbarian 1(Spirit Lion)/Fighter 2/__?__ 2/Juggernaut 5/__?__ 4. For the filled open areas, I'm thinking either Crusader, or Warblade or some combination. I've been slowly reading the ToB and related online handbooks, but I haven't figured out the best options yet. I'm happy to share a bit more about the combat style I was current leaning towards, and I'm more than open to suggestions or any recommendations you might have, particularly regarding the ToB which I'm not as familiar with.

Currently he's a large warforged Juggernaut with a high strength and con. I'm going for a two-handed weapon fight style, with a focus on power attack and/or charging. I like the feat combination of Shocktrooper, Knockback, and Knockdown. Though Knockdown is somewhat expensive to get (combat expertise and improved trip). But in essence, that means that every time you hit with a power attack, you get a free bullrush and trip. Shocktrooper of course also goes well with charging, bullrushing and tripping. I also considered Combat Brute (though sunder might not be that useful against a dragon), and Advancing Blow might go well with KnockBack. However, going the charger route might provide much better multipliers for damage.

I chose not to go with Dungeon Crasher because I think it is a very situational ability, and perhaps likewise not as useful verse a dragon or arial combat. I was also considering using a pole-arm instead of a 2-handed sword, which would be better for charging, but perhaps not as good for bullrushing which lands you next to your opponent.

That said, I'm looking for maneuvers or stances that either help with charging, power attack or bull rushing, or otherwise might be useful for large single targets. So I haven't decided on the ToB class path or combination yet. I thought I read something about a Crusader maneuver that provided healing based hits.

I did look at a number of other non-warforged builds, including Runescare Berserker, Robotackle, etc, but I found Warforged Juggernaut really fit the story and style of the character I was going for the best. Though this does limit my total optimization of the character. Still, a large Juggernaut is nothing to cough at.

As for items, beyond the basics of strength, resistance, darkvision, AC, etc, I was considering the following:
Wings of Flying (you got to catch the dragon somehow)
Retributive Amulet (potentially great when going toe to toe with a dragon)
Ring of Anticipation (to help with initiative)
Valorous weapon enchantment of some kind

I'll also need something to provide some energy resistance vs breath weapons.

Any, thoughts and suggestions welcome on how I can improve the build. Many thanks.

~imaginari

 

[Jackinthegreen]

If you got the second level of barbarian you could take the Wolf Totem variant that technically does not interfere with taking the Lion Spirit Totem ACF since they trade out different class features. That setup is usually the one people use for easy entry into Improved trip/Knockdown. Refluffing it to be something like the mountain lion totem could work.

You'll definitely want to use a reach weapon instead of a sword. Your armor spikes will let you still threaten out to 10 feet while your weapon threatens 15 and 20.

Unless you're using called shot rules where you can sunder the dragon's limb or head off, Improved Sunder probably won't do much for you. Combat Brute's Advancing Blows and Momentum Swing would be useful though, if you could get the feats. Given how strapped you likely are, I wouldn't recommend it.

You might want to look at Brute Fighting in case it appeals to you more than Combat Brute.

Truth be told I'm not all that practiced with ToB stuff since I don't typically memorize spells/ similar stuff like maneuvers. I can, however, tell you that crusader and warblade are both definitely better for your situation than swordsage would be. They both offer superior hit points, armor choice, and disciplines. Crusader might be able to get you some healing depending on how your DM rules stuff like Martial Spirit to affect you since it's not noted as being healing from a spell, so you might not be immune to it.