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How To Play A Paladin Correctly.

reapersaurus

Explorer
Atridis said:
A perfect illustration of the difference, and potential conflict, between Cleric & Paladin is in "Reign of Fire": Christian Bale is a Cleric, and Matthew McConaughey is a Paladin.
<cConaughey's character (Van Zan) was NOT a Paladin.
He on the surface acts like one, but that's his obsessive/suicidal/tough-guy front.

For example, a Paladin would NEVER draft people against their will, essentially kidnapping people under the justification that the act is OK because he's doing it to kill the dragon(s).

In reality, he's a LN/LE fighter who strayed way too far from Good to be called a Paladin of any kind.

In fact, your description of a Paladin is not LG, either (and it's a bit scary).
A Paladin's desire to stop (kill) Evil is ALWAYS tempered by his desire to protect innocents. Without that balancing factor to his violence, he's just a Fighter/fallen-Paladin.
 

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Agback

Explorer
Rashak Mani said:
Someone mentioned Knightly Orders... Templars were historically speaking very prone to heroic and foolish charges. They lacked military discipline and certainly seem similar to gung ho paladins we see all the time. :)

They were. They were also inclined to be grasping, selfish, and unruly. They betrayed and overthrew kings (including one perfectly decent king of Cyprus who was only trying to promote order in his kingdom), shot up churches during Mass (trying to undermine the authority of a bishop they didn't like), evicted widows from their homes, cheated on mortgage deals, rode rough-shod over commoners, rioted against bishops, the Hospitallers, and the Teutonic knights, engaged in feuds, started unnecessary and foolish wars, broke the treaties of the kings of Jerusalem, fought like lions and died like martyrs.

There are reasons that the various kings of Christendom wanted to and were able to destroy the Templars. One is that they were a plausible threat to every dynasty north of the Pyrenees. Another is that they made themselves absolutely no friends. This is because they were as an institution neither lawful nor good.

The Hospitallers were on the other hand. They owned more than twice as much land as the Templars, though they lacked the banking profits. They would have been a very tempting target for cash-strapped kings. But (although they had had their unruly moments, and although some of their privileges were resented by bishops and a constant source of litigation) they were in general much more supportive of due authority: they did not overthrow kings or break truces. And because they ran hospitals instead of banks they had lots and lots of friends. Which made them politically invulnerable.

I have said it before, and I guess I will say it again. The Hospitallers and even the Teutonic Knights make a much better historical role model for paladins than the Templars do.

In this context, I strongly recommend The Monks of War by Desmond Seward (ISBN 0-14-019501-7). This is a very readable narrative history of the holy fighting orders. It is very informative, and no-one can but be thrilled to read what Pierre d'Aubusson did at the siege of Malta. No wonder evil beings are scared of paladins!

Regards,


Agback
 

Agback

Explorer
Endur said:
"Orcs are evil, we kill them."

That isn't Good. That's just the more genocidal side in a very nasty feud.

Endur said:
I agree that balance is good and I'm not a big fan of the "Detect Evil".

The last paladin I played stopped using his 'Detect Evil' ability because it was depressing an uninformative. Nearly everyone showed up as at least a little bit evil, and even knowing that someone in particular is quite evil doesn't tell you whether they are lying, whether they are legally in the right in a particular dispute, etc. And in the Norman kingdom of England, even in the bishopric palatinate of Durham, a Saxon paladin whose legal status is as a household knight of a baron of modest importance does not have the power of high justice.

Endur said:
With regards to evil creatures, it is far better to convert a creature to good than to slay the creature.

Indeed. Some GMs include unredeemable evil in their worlds, but I find it much more limited and less interesting than a situation that puts players of Good characters in the kill/convert dilemma. It makes the struggle purely tactical.

Regards,


Agback
 

Rashak Mani

First Post
Agback said:
The last paladin I played stopped using his 'Detect Evil' ability because it was depressing an uninformative. Nearly everyone showed up as at least a little bit evil, and even knowing that someone in particular is quite evil doesn't tell you whether they are lying, whether they are legally in the right in a particular dispute, etc. Agback

I play a totally innocent Paladin... in fact he thinks he is a fighter. He comes from a very simple background being a farmer at heart. He dreams of going back home and planting some nice crops... not of glory in the battle vs. Evil. The other players and characters don't know he is a paladin either... well not in the beggining. The DM's girlfriend figured it out by 3rd lvl... not her character thou. I gave him a simpleton name too: Mika.

So back to the Detect Evil thing... since Mika doesnt know about his Paladin status... I basically roleplay it like a "feeling". I message the DM that I want to do a "Detect Evil" by putting a finger to my temple. He then criptically answers something.. usually head nods. So I play my simpleton Paladin as having a "bad feeling". The other characters have come to respect my "instincts". When I say key phrases such as "something is wrong"... "I dont feel well here" ... or "odd feeling". They get a bit nervous :) I detected evil in two main plot characters... and that didn't keep me from talking to them. Thou I was pretty dry and non-friendly to them. Leaving the meeting I told the group that I didn't trust them too much... never would I use my "bad feeling" to put the group strongly against them. I think its a pretty neat way to use Detect Evil.

Other abilities I have to signal by various means to the DM in order to keep the group out of the loop. Divine Might is done by shouting "Pelor give me strength". Smite Evil is "Pelor Guide my Hand". If I do both I just say both... since I have Power attack feat the other players don't think the extra damage is strange. I got spells now in 4th lvl and the DM will control spellcasting... we agreed that my simple view and lack of formal training prevents me from spellcasting. I will make only cure light wounds mostly. I did one unsucessful Turn Undead by praying... As for Lay on Hands... I have a good number of herbalism ranks. I heal only 2 in 2 points since I don't know its me healing and not the herbs. One player was mystified at "herbalism" taking away damage... but didnt inquire further. :)

I won't go on longer since its my favorite character... but its great fun playing his dopey ways... he just loves to babble on about farming. He falls asleep incredibly early and wakes up before dawn... and usually manages to get some heavy workout cleaning the local stable since he misses the farm chores. His notions of right and wrong are very well defined thou and more than once he has demonstrated wisdom beyond his means (or statistics). He dreams of being a knight but can barely stop thinking of the rural life and dreads too much bloodshed. Yep... Mika the Farmer.
 
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takyris

First Post
Halfling Rogue/Paladin

Considers himself a Scout when possible, an Archer when available, but a close-up combatant when necessary.

Would have no trouble sneaking into an overlord's fortress and taking guards b y surprise as he went -- provided that said fortress knew that it was doing evil and that people were looking to stop it. In such a case, the fortress is not a helpless victim being attacked by surprise, but a willing tactical adversary playing a game of chess. And surprise and stealth attacks are simply good tactics in a game like that.

On the other hand, he strictly considers himself a scout. He is good with using his abilities against a foe that must be met with good tactics and sound strategy, but he is not an assassin. He will not sneak into the castle and kill the warlord unless said warlord has a device that will instantly cause the destruction of hundreds of innocents. He will take the guards, who are, by their nature, supposed to be alert and ready for attack, by surprise, but he will challenge the warlord to a duel rather than assassinating him.

Has no problem using sneak-attacks due to flanking or stunning, unless he is in an honorable duel, in which case he would forego them.
 

nopantsyet

First Post
First of all, I think a player should always outline a specific code for his paladin on paper. The class description starts you in the right direction, but you have to look at the paladin's god, and more specifically, at the paladin's relationship with that god. Everybody who practices religion internalizes and expresses it in their own way--even if they are a member of a very dogmatic religion, like Catholicism or Islam.

The code should include--as these religions do--not just proscribed acts, but guidelines for interaction. So, to take a Chrisitian frame of reference, you need your ten commandments and your beatitudes. Continuing on, it should also address views on matters such as proselytization, association with unbelievers and sinners, and the all important "rules of engagement."

Armed with that, the paladin has only a basic framework for conducting him/herself. Now comes the fun part, when the DM takes his copy of the code and decides how the god feels about it (secretly, of course) and creates situations where the paladin will be morally challenged.

For the paladin's part, he/she must now bear the mantle of upholding that code, and examining every thought, word, and action continuously, agonizing over whether they are living up to their code, which should be nigh impossible since the paladin must set godly goals. Since the paladin is imperfect and always failing in (hopefully) small ways, part of praying for spells could include the deliberate act of self-judgement and repentence.

All of this devotion and turmoil should provide much roleplaying enjoyment for the true paladin.
 

FireLance

Legend
Jürgen Hubert said:
I'd say the best fictional example of behaviour worthy of a paladin that I have come across is Captain Carrot from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels.

Yes, I was about to mention Carrot, too. In addition, I was going to mention Sam Vimes. Vimes is becoming increasingly paladin-like, and the way in which he behaves is an interesting contrast to Carrot, and shows the variety that is possible in paladin behaviour.

Carrot is idealistic, goes by the book, always fights fair (sometimes to his detriment), and wins people over as much by force of personality, persuasion and diplomacy as he does by force of arms.

Vimes is more of a grim and gritty paladin. He has a code of honour and tries what to do what is right, but he tempers his idealism with realism and makes compromises when necessary. Depending on the nature of their game, some DMs may see Vimes as an ex-paladin, or not a paladin at all, but the way in which he acts is viable paladin behaviour to me.
 

bardolph

First Post
From the SRD--

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

...and the description of Lawful Good

Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

---

As far as I'm concerned, as long as you follow these guidelines, you are doing a fine job roleplaying a Paladin.

Any further "requirements" are just baggage.
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
There is no "right" way to play a paladin. Playing a paladin almost always depends on the dictates of the DM and the world you play in.

In my world, many of the so-called paladins described in this thread would either be killed by the forces of evil through gross incompetence or relieved of duty and possibly even executed for such.

Here is a reposting of my good friend SHARK's paladin code. It is the same code I use in my game as well:

-----------------------------

(1) The Paladin is charged with bringing war and death to the forces of Darkness, wherever they are found!

In pursuit of this goal, it is generally expected that the Paladin will bring open war and forthright attacks against such opponents.

(2) The Paladin is charged with defending the faithful: This means fellow worshippers of the Paladin's gods; Temple priests, brother Templars. This also includes guarding the persons of pilgrims while on holy pilgrimmages to holy sites; Guarding the grounds of the sacred temples and holy sites of the gods.

(3) The Paladin is to generally--though some, are more introverted by nature--expected to provide dynamic, bold leadership to all of those around the Paladin.

(4) The Paladin is expected to be prepared to sacrifice his life as a Holy Martyr, should the situation require it, or, of course, under divine inspiration.

For example, this can include, but is not limited to:

In a desperate siege, where things are depressingly grim, the Paladin may martyr himself by riding boldly forth from the besieged fortress or encampment, and heroically charging into the enemy, thus, dying in righteous combat. Also, though, the Paladin's certain, conscious death serves as a living example of open defiance of the powers of Darkness, and may serve to encourage and inspire the remaining beleagured defenders with righteous fury and determination. In addition, it serves as an implaccable statement to the forces of Darkness, that here, there shall be no mercy, no compromise, no surrender. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith. (This is a huge series of beautiful books which record the stories of great heroes of the faith. The master set is maintained within the Great Temple, which is a fortress-temple in the capital.)

The Paladin may martyr themselves by insisting on staying behind, and forming a formidable rear-guard, fighting the pursuing enemy to the death, so that wounded party members, fellow soldiers, or just common folk, may escape, and yet live. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith.

The Paladin may martyr himself by willingly leading a raid deep into the territory of the forces of Darkness, where the purpose may include the retrieval of an item; the death of a leader, or specific individual; or simply to bring fire and steel to the enemy, all the while knowing that their own death is highly likely. In this instance, aside from the specific goal as outlined above, the general goal is to serve as a constant source, a constant reminder to the forces of Darkness, be they Lich, Dragon, Vampire, or Orc King, it doesn't matter--The message sent, over and over again, is this--THE FORCES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE COMING FOR YOU!--There is no escape. The Forces of Darkness are not the "Hunters"--but the hunted! It is not for good, righteous folk to live in fear of Darkness, but it is they, the spawn of Chaos, the monsters, the servants of the dark gods who must live in fear! Though the forces of Darkness may slaughter millions, the forces of Righteousness shall march as one, and continue to march, and bring judgement, fire, and death, to all the forces of Darkness, wherever they hide, wherever they can be found!

(5) The Paladin is expected to be a champion of Righteousness and Good, within the community, and wherever he travels. For example;

The Paladin is ready to preach to others about his faith; The Paladin is ready to offer counseling to those in need, be they in mourning, discouraged, or fearful. The Paladin stands ready to offer words of wisdom, advice, friendship, or just a listening ear, or a warm embrace.

The Paladin is expected to generously make offerings to his Temple; In addition, the Paladin is expected to be willing to help other party members in need, for example. For the Paladin, "Gold" isn't terribly important. Some Paladins are good at saving, and it is encouraged to have plenty in order to help those in need; However, it is also common for many Paladins to be very low on "Gold" and such, because in truth, they value it so little. They can always get more, either by conquest, by honest labor, or by the Temple, if they are in need. Furthermore, many Paladins need only go to any Temple to find much of what they need; In addition, if in need, many farmers and peasants will come up with something; and in the city, Taverns and restaurants often feed and house them for free. Businesses, like armourers, weaponsmiths, or ranchers selling horses, will provide the Paladin with what he needs for free, or, simply on the Paladin's word to pay later. The Paladin's word is everything. Once pledged, only death, or the most extreme of circumstances will prevent the Paladin from fulfilling his word of honour.

While travelling the countryside, it is not uncommon for Paladins to stop by a farm and assist with putting in a new fence, or help by bringing in the harvest, all for free. The Paladin may offer some instruction in weapons practice, or warnings of monsters in the area, or simply praising his gods, and their righteous King. The Paladin may also inquire to the farmer and his family about news of any brigands or monsters in the area, in which the folks KNOW that "HELL IS COM'IN!" to such enemies. They KNOW that the Paladins are not like slick merchants, or demagogues, or petty nobles--Always talking, promising the world, but somehow, never delivering. The fact is, that should the farmer say,

"well, yes, there are some Gnolls up in the hills, just over the other side o'the river there!"

The farmer, and his family may see the Paladin return within a few days to a week, with others with him. The Paladin will then drive the evil Gnolls out into the open, or slaughter them in the caves. The Paladin will seek to absolutely crush the Gnolls, and be very willing to heroically pour his life's blood out right there, on the field of battle! Should the paladin fail, and lay there sprawled in the field dead, well, in a week, more will come. And should they fail, more will come. Even in death, the Paladin's commitment is made good. Soon, one way or the other, the Gnolls will be nothing more than a memory. And the farmer's family will be safe. That fact, and that kind of unflinching courage and self-sacrifice in the face of horrible danger and frequent death, is why the Paladins are respected so much, and why they enjoy unprecedented authority and power. The people KNOW that the Paladins really care; They KNOW that the Paladins keep their word of honour; They KNOW that Paladins will sacrifice themselves to protect them, any of them, regardless of their birth, status, or wealth. Rain or shine, in good times and bad, the people can take that to the bank! Guaranteed.

Paladins encourage sexual restraint, and self-discipline. Some Paladins are celibate; others may have respectable girl-friends; marriage is strongly encouraged; In all cases, keeping company with whores or even a series of girlfriends is not acceptable. It is seen as displaying an inappropriate image of the Paladins, and furthermore, is viewed as morally undisciplined. In public, they drink only moderately, if at all. In private celebrations and such, they may be more free with drinking. However, should chronic drunkenness become a routine, disciplinary counseling will be in order. Likewise, no hallucinogenic drugs and such are acceptable. That is seen, again, as morally undisciplined. Pipes, cigars, and such, can be used freely, as they don't inhibit or impair the Paladin's judgement.

Unless overtaken by age, or injury, the Paladin is expected to remain in top physical condition. The Paladin needs to have all of his physical strength and endurance, to be able to fight against the forces of Darkness.

Paladins are expected to uphold, champion, and where applicable, enforce the laws of the King, and Church. For example, Paladins are not expected to be full-time law-enforcement officers. Thus, they don't go around town, looking for thieves or drunks to "arrest." However, should a Paladin witness a thief, he is expected to pursue and arrest the thief. Should the Paladin witness a domestic quarrel, he is expected to attempt to mediate, and/or, call the Watch. Should the Paladin witness a murder, or attempted murder, full assault is totally permissable. The Paladin may "arrest" the criminal, if the Paladin judges that that is practical. If the Paladin witnesses, or hears of either schemes of violence or sedition against the Faith, or the King, the Paladin is charged with all legal and ecclessiastical authority to root out traitors, heretics, cultists, assassins, or rebels, as deemed appropriate and necessary. In those cases, the paladin may arrest them, should vital intelligence be needed, or some other purpose is desired. The Paladin, however, is not required to do so. Good faith and judgement are entrusted to him. If the paladin says that he thought about bringing the cultist in for further interrogation, but at the time, he decided it was too dangerous, and so proceeded to cut the cultist down, no one is going to second guess the Paladin. His word, and his own good judgement, are sufficient.

The Paladin, where possible, is expected to attend Temple services once per week. The paladin is expected to encourage others to do so as well. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable in Church Doctrine, Ecclessiastical Law, as well as the King's Law. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable about history, customs, heraldry, and spiritual knowledge, about the forces of Darkness. Demons, Necromancers, Orcs, whathaveyou. The Paladin is expected to know some skills of the land, and of labor. The Paladin is expected to embrace a vigorous work ethic. It is never seen, no matter his prior station in life, as somehow "beneath" him to chop word, or lend a hand in any kind of labor. The Paladin is expected to continue his academic studies, and continue to grow in knowledge and spiritual wisdom. Stupid Paladins are not looked upon with favor, nor are lazy ones, or Paladins who can only swing a sword. The Paladin is expected to act with courage, decisiveness, boldness, integrity, honor, and faithfulness in all things.

The Paladin is expected to dress appropriately for whatever occasions, if possible; The Paladin is expected to assist law enforcement in broader ways, if needed; The Paladin is expected to stand up to tyranny, corruption, and moral decay. He is expected to bring such to the attention of all proper authorities; Should they be slack in observing such, the Paladin is expected to boldly challenge them in righteous chastisement. The purpose is to shame them into fulfilling their noble duties. Should they resist, a knightly challenge to combat is in order. Should they be too large, or unwilling to face such noble judgement by the sword, then the Paladin is charged with first making a public announcement, either in person, or in writing, or by Bard;-- that Judgement and Wrath shall come upon the evil, corrupt people, and all who follow them. Then, bold, decisive action can be launched against the evil noble, merchant lord, or whoever.

In general, the paladin seeks to always minimize civilian casualties in any actions. The Paladin may not pretend to parley, and then ambush the enemy. However, there is no restriction on attacking at night, or using terrain or suprise, to ambush a numerically stronger opponent. If the opponent is willing, the Paladin is always ready to enter into single combat. Naturally, the paladin isn't supposed to engage in lying, cheating, or stealing. That is a PRINCIPLE that is followed by all Paladins. However, that doesn't mean that the Paladin cannot say whatever while in an effort to save someone, or serve some greater purpose.

Likewise, in the constant struggle against the forces of Darkness, the Paladin is expected to keep the "Big Picture" in mind. The most good, in the long run, for the most people. That means that sometimes, innocent civilians may die. That means that some troops may have to be sacrificed, so that more mmight live. That means that if your best friend, even a brother Templar, is a werewolf, he dies. If your brother becomes a vampire, he gets staked and burned. Period.

Does that mean that the Paladin should never attempt, as in the case of the werewolf, to "cure" him? No, it doesn't. Nor does it preclude some thought for reversing, if possible, vampirism. But once again, common sense, grace, and good judgement, are entrusted to the Paladin. It is entrusted, with the knowledge that Paladins are HUMAN or (IMPERFECT) and thus, may on occasion, may make mistakes. It is thus entrusted to the Paladin by the Paladin's gods, by the Church, by the King, and by the People. The benefit of the doubt is given to the Paladin. He is not second-guessed for each and every decision he makes, or fails to make. It is assumed that if the Paladin had thought it was reasonable to save whoever, he would have done so. If the Paladin thought it was possible to take so and so prisoner, he would have done so. The fact that the Paladin didn't, it isn't therefore assumed that he is wrong. People assume that the Paladin executed Judgement, Wrath, or Mercy, as needed, and as the Paladin thought best.

Thus, the burden, the challenge, the divine calling, to be a Paladin is indeed difficult, and trying. Only the best need apply. And many of them will die in the holy, righteous cause. As it is taught to the Paladins while in the Monastary;

"Seek ye to follow the narrow path, which leads to the gate of Righteousness; For the broad way, choose not, for it leads to the way of destruction, the gates of damnation."

In my campaign, the common Fighter, lives under no such requirements, or expectations.

Thus, then, in my view, are the ways of the Paladin.

Of course, any thoughtful questions or analysis is indeed welcomed!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Jürgen Hubert

First Post
FireLance said:
Yes, I was about to mention Carrot, too. In addition, I was going to mention Sam Vimes. Vimes is becoming increasingly paladin-like, and the way in which he behaves is an interesting contrast to Carrot, and shows the variety that is possible in paladin behaviour.

Carrot is idealistic, goes by the book, always fights fair (sometimes to his detriment), and wins people over as much by force of personality, persuasion and diplomacy as he does by force of arms.

Vimes is more of a grim and gritty paladin. He has a code of honour and tries what to do what is right, but he tempers his idealism with realism and makes compromises when necessary. Depending on the nature of their game, some DMs may see Vimes as an ex-paladin, or not a paladin at all, but the way in which he acts is viable paladin behaviour to me.

While Vimes is my favorite character by far in the entire Discworld series, I have my doubts about labelling his behaviour paladin-like.

Sure, he always tries to do the right thing (and succeeds more often than not), but he is perfectly willing to "cheat", and even lie to his superiors (i.e., the Patrician - not that it does him any good) to get his way.

"'Do you know why I sent Captain Carrot away just now, Vimes?'
'Couldn't say, sir.'
'Captain Carrot is a honest young man, Vimes.'
'And did you know that he winces when he hears you tell a direct lie?'
'Really, sir?' Damn.
'I can't stand to see his poor face twitch all the time, Vimes.'
'Very thoughtful of you, sir.'"

He is a man who does not abide by any rules apart from those he has chosen for himself.
 

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