D&D 3E/3.5 How viable is a Elven Fighter Mage in 3.5

[drnuncheon]

The point is that by just taking 3 warrior levels and 7 wizard levels you have higher level spells and Still Spell as a bonus feat.

Spells without Somatic Components have no Arcane Spell Failure, so you can just prepare all of your spells as Still Spells and come out ahead over the Spellsword.

So...Ftr3/Wiz7 vs. Ftr2/Wiz4/SS4 or Ftr1/Wiz5/EK4, all 10th level.

The first casts like a Wiz5, thanks to his necessity for using Still Spell - he can't use those 4th level spells.

The third does too, but he's got a caster level of 8.

Meanwhile, the spellsword has a caster level of 6, meaning he's basically got just as many usable spells as the Ftr/Wiz, if not more. He's got 1 higher BAB than the Ftr/Wiz, he's got the channel spell ability, he's got more hit points.

How is the Ftr/Wiz "coming out ahead" again?

 

[jgsugden]

Trollman is missing the major point here which is that a Spellsword can mitigate the Arcane Failure from wearing that heavy armour, from memory I think it tops out at 25% so a spellsword 10 could wear mithril Full Plate and have no spell failure chance while Franks Fighter/Wizard has a 25% arcane failure chance, that is one quarter of your spells (and actions) wasted.

This advantage assumes that metal armor is better than magic.

Mithral Full Plate +5, Dex 16 and Large Shield +5 total an AC bonus of +23. It also totals a touch AC bonus of +3.

On the other hand, a wizard with bracers of armor +8, a dex of 20, a monk's belt & wisdom 20 gets +19 to both his touch and regular AC. Heck, it even works against incorporeal attacks. If the wizard really tries, he can get a really high dex and wisdom with inherent and enhancement bonuses.

Plus, the wizard with bracers/vest can also use a robe with a useful special ability for a wizard, such as the robe of the archmagi (although the armor bonus is redundant) or a robe of stars. If you don't get bracers of armor, the bracers slot is pretty much wasted. There isn't much that you can use in the vest slot either.

 

[green slime]

So...Ftr3/Wiz7 vs. Ftr2/Wiz4/SS4 or Ftr1/Wiz5/EK4, all 10th level.

The first casts like a Wiz5, thanks to his necessity for using Still Spell - he can't use those 4th level spells.

The third does too, but he's got a caster level of 8.

Meanwhile, the spellsword has a caster level of 6, meaning he's basically got just as many usable spells as the Ftr/Wiz, if not more. He's got 1 higher BAB than the Ftr/Wiz, he's got the channel spell ability, he's got more hit points.

How is the Ftr/Wiz "coming out ahead" again?

Actually the best path is Ftr1/Wiz6/EK3 IMO.
Wiz 6 gets +1 to all saves and looses no BAB...

There is at least one handy 4th level spells that require no Somatic components: Dimension Door springs to mind... So not all of those 4th level slots need to be filled with Stilled third level spells. And as the third level spellsDisplacement and Darkness do not require Somatic components either, the loss in spellcasting power is not as great as it may first seem.

 

[DM2]

Actually the best path is Ftr1/Wiz6/EK3 IMO.
Wiz 6 gets +1 to all saves and looses no BAB...

There is at least one handy 4th level spells that require no Somatic components: Dimension Door springs to mind... So not all of those 4th level slots need to be filled with Stilled third level spells. And as the third level spellsDisplacement and Darkness do not require Somatic components either, the loss in spellcasting power is not as great as it may first seem.

That is good. Certainly points out how sub-par the build for my backup character is....

I was wanting to play an eldritch knight with a holy bent...wielding arcane magic in service of the church, but on the fringe compared to mainstream paladins.

Pal 2, Sorc 6, EK2 would certainly be an underpowered build though...with great saves at lease though LOL

Ah well.

DM2

 

[bensei]

Actually the best path is Ftr1/Wiz6/EK3 IMO.

Unless you want a touch spell and ray master (with mage armor instead of real armor). Then a sorcerer could be better suited for his much higher firepower.

Pal 2, Sorc 6, EK2 would certainly be an underpowered build though...with great saves at lease though

Not really that underpowered. He lacks one Ftr feat and one caster level. But the Pal does not only receive great saves at the first levels. Consider e.g. Lay on Hands. Healing self is a major problem of the EK. The other stuff is not that bad either. And considering the saves. Other people are taking Iron Will, etc., with the second level Pal you get a +4 (or more) to all saves.

 

[DM2]

Spellsword has problems.

The biggest problem, of course, is that if your goal is to cast spells in armor and stab people, you're better off just taking a mix of Fighter Wizard levels.

Let's look at a standard Spellsword:

You can take the class after 3 levels of Fighter, and 3 levels of Wizard.

So taking 10 levels of Spellsword:

Your BAB is +11.
Your Caster level is 8, and you can cast 4th level spells in armor.
You have gained 1 bonus fighter feat.
You have a Sword Cache - which is a very fancy way of saying you have Brew Potion.

OR you could take 3 levels of Fighter and 7 levels of Wizard:

Your BAB is +11.
Your Caster level is 10, and you can cast 4th level spells in armor.
You have gained 2 bonus fighter feats.
You have gained 2 bonus Wizard feats, one of which is Brew Potion, and the other is Still Spell (since your caster level is 2 higher, you can just prepare your 4th level spells as 5th level Still spells and have the same number of them and cast them without somatic components).
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[SNIP to save space in the thread]

If you think the Fighter 6 / Wizard 10 is an overpowered build - maybe the Spellsword is balanced. Otherwise, it stinks.

-Frank

I see your points. Doesn't this make the EK an even more potent build at 16th level than even the Fighter/Wizard build ?

Here's a comparison:

Progression
Ftr 1 1 ftr feat, +1 BAB, 10 HP
Wiz 5 1 wiz feat, +2 BAB, 5 caster levels, 5d4 HP
EK 10 1 ftr feat, +10 BAB 9 caster levels, 10d6 HP

Benefit Summary
BAB +13/+8/+3
2 ftr feats
1 wiz feat (still spell)
Caster level 14
Can cast 6th lvl spells in heavy armor w/shield
10 + 5d4 + 10d6 HP (avg 57)

Progression
Ftr 6 4 ftr feat, +6 BAB, 10 + 5d10 HP
Wiz 10 2 wiz feat, +5 BAB, 10 caster levels, 10d4 HP

Benefit Summary
BAB +11/+6/+1
4 ftr feats
2 wiz feats
Caster Level 10
Casts 4th lvl spells in heavy armor w/shield
10 + 5d10 + 10d4 HP (avg 62)

The EK is down slightly in HP from the Ftr/Wiz, but can cast 2 more spell levels (stilling all spells) than the Ftr/Wiz. With those extra spell levels, your probably happy to toss out the 3 extra bonus feats a straight Ftr/Wiz would gain.

Of course, the EK doesn't really start to own Ftr/Wiz builds until higher levels (such as this), but I think it is an interesting comparison.

Later,
DM2

 

[Darklone]

This advantage assumes that metal armor is better than magic.

Mithral Full Plate +5, Dex 16 and Large Shield +5 total an AC bonus of +23. It also totals a touch AC bonus of +3.

On the other hand, a wizard with bracers of armor +8, a dex of 20, a monk's belt & wisdom 20 gets +19 to both his touch and regular AC. Heck, it even works against incorporeal attacks.

Nope. Mage armour works against incorporeal attacks (which are touch attacks) but not normal touch attacks.

 

[DM2]

On the other hand, a wizard with bracers of armor +8, a dex of 20, a monk's belt & wisdom 20 gets +19 to both his touch and regular AC. Heck, it even works against incorporeal attacks. If the wizard really tries, he can get a really high dex and wisdom with inherent and enhancement bonuses.

Whether a monk's belt gives only the +1 AC bonus due to the "AC Bonus" column of the Monk table, or also gives the wisdom bonus to AC of a monk seems pretty debatable.

Wouldn't the monk's belt be vastly underpriced if it actually granted the monk's wisdom bonus to AC, one of the key monk abilities, and something with the potential to give anyone huge bonuses ?

It would also make the monk's belt much more useful to non-monks than to monks. Non-monks with high wisdoms would get a +5 or more to their AC, along with other benefits. Monks would get their only significant advantage from the increase in damage dice (which isn't a lot), and a measly +1 to AC.

I think the intent was for the monk's belt to grant the +1 AC bonus, and not the wis bonus to AC, but I can't prove it

DM2

 

[abri]

Well, reading through Dragon magazine I found a good combo for those that want to fight in melee and have spell abilities:
The feat combo: God touched, divine ? and divine furor. Basically it allows you to boost your combat abilities as a free action. In particular you can augment your BAB by (1+Cha bonus) for a few rounds (enough to last a combat).
So you could play an elven Cl1(any god, really has you have proeficiency in the long bow and lonsword already and don't need the war domain, actually access to the air/fire/earth domain could help)/Sorcerer 5+
With a 18 charisma, a cloak of charisma +2 and the fire domain, you end up with a BAB of +8/+3 for up to 17 combats per day!
Next feat to pick would be power attack IMHO.
You'll have less combat tricks than a fighter but higher BAB and you can boost yourself with spells.
Ps: May I suggest a spellsword (magic of Faerun) for any self-respecting fighter mage (with targeted dispell magic as the spell you become to)

 

[Spatzimaus]

At 12th level, you'll have a Caster Level of 10, a BAB of +9, and 43.5 hit points (plus 12 times Con Bonus).

So a 12th level "Eldritch Knight" has the choice to fight like a 12th level Aristocrat or cast magic like a 10th level Wizard.

So I suppose you hate Bards, too? After all, a 12th-level Bard has a BAB of +9, 44.5 hit points (plus 12 times Con Bonus), and his casting ability isn't as good as a 10th-level Wizard. No bonus Feats, no Familiar, and less weapon proficiencies, but he gets a nice assortment of skills and can cast in light armor, plus a few miscellaneous class abilities.

Giving up two levels of spellcasting to get one or two bonus Feats, an extra +1 to +6 BAB and a few more HP is a tradeoff I've made with almost all of my characters. Not everyone is obsessed with having the highest level of spells possible. I've had more fun playing Bard-type hybrid casters than I have the "pure" caster types. Eldritch Knight allows for a Bard-like character who has the offensive abilities of a Wizard or Sorcerer, and this is A Good Thing. It also works very nicely as an alternative to the Arcane Archer; take bow feats with the bonus Feats, and the high BAB becomes a very nice asset.
Also, just because it's a "Fighter Bonus Feat" doesn't mean it doesn't help you as a caster; there are a few Feats that overlap nicely. I've always been a fan of Improved Initiative, myself, and Dodge/Mobility has uses for casters too. Now, the class' lack of "flavor" is an entirely different debate, which has been beaten to death.

Oh, and Still Spell is NOT a good solution to the whole "cast in armor" issue. It works as a stopgap, sure, but Sorcerers can't really use it well thanks to the increased casting time, and the +1 spell level hurts Wizards and Sorcerers alike. Using Still Spell for all your spells is like giving up 2 spellcasting levels right off the top. Now, if you find all the spells without Somatic Components (Blindness/Deafness, True Strike, Teleport) then it's workable to wear armor; I know because I've done that.