How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? (Volume II)

[mmadsen]

In that case I advise the army and their vampire king to move to a low-magic world, where armies don't have to spend years puzzling out how they could use magic to do this, but then how the enemy could use magic to prevent it, but then how the army could use magic to prevent them from preventing it, but how the enemy could do that to them, over and over and over.

That's basically the point of this conversation, Tiefling -- to figure out how high-magic would play out on a grand scale. That's what SHARK's world is like.

Frankly, I agree; it's almost impossible to work out what would really happen. I suspect that if you described modern technology -- but not how it's used on the battlefield -- to a Roman general, he'd have no idea how modern wars play out.

Anyway, even in a much lower-magic world, we'd want to figure out what we might do and what they might do to counter it. If you only look at the cool tricks you can come up with, you'll get a rude awakening when you find out the hard way what the other side came up with.

 

[Zenon]

What the bad guys need to do is play catch-up a little. We need something like this to offset those Standards.

(Apologies to SHARK for blatently ripping off and re-writing the Legion Standard with an evil bent, and for the rules-laywers, this is only a quick re-write, feel free to poke holes in rule mistakes in it ):

The Apocalypse Standards

The Apocalypse Standards are mighty evil artifacts of unimaginable power. Created in the last age by a mythical Demi-Lich (who has since rumored to have ascended to godhood) to combat the Legion Standards given to the Vallorean Legions by their Pantheon. Like the Valloreans, the Demi-Lich had access to the ancient Greater Rituals used to create these terrible weapons. This horrible weapon is crafted in a mockery of its Vallorean counterpart, and is shaped like an impaling spike that is some 10 feet long, and is tipped with a silver human figure, inlaid with onyx. The human figure is finely detailed and is that of a nude Vallorean male, bound with ropes of ebony thorns which pierce its silver flesh. The head of the figure is thrown back in a perpetual scream. From the throat of the figure, the wail of doomed souls continually emanates. From the top of the figure, a shaft of Force energy, formed of ebon darkness, rises higher and is formed into a cruel barbed spear-point that extends eighteen inches beyond the top of the human figures head. A crossbeam runs through the bound arms of the figure behind its back. At the feet of the figure, two crouching Imps leer upwards. The Imps are life-like, with intelligent eyes. The weapon strikes normally as a Halberd, and the Imps tails animate and strike in combat. The feet of the Imps hold onto the blood red banner, which is trimmed in black and gold. The banner is embroidered with runes inscribed in Abbysal. One Apocalypse Standard was created to oppose each Legion Standard made. Some of the Apocalypse Standards were created over two thousand years ago, by the malignant evil that pevades the land. When the priests of the Valloreans who beseeched the Vallorean gods for aid in their struggle against the forces of Darkness, and Forces of Darkness acted to counter them. The Gods of Darkness heard the cry of their people, and they sent their minions into the midst of their people, so as to help them in the design and forging of these terrible weapons. The Forces of Darkness mixed into the creation process elements of their gods’ blood, which had all been mixed together from each of the evil deities. The Apocalypse Standards blazed with runes of eternal darkness, a darkness so deep it drinks in all light, swallowing it without a trace. The runes are inscribed in Abbysal, and the standards themselves are sentient, animated, and cruel beyond measure. The Apocalypse Standards envelop the standard bearer with a drifting ropy tendrils of darkness and fog when the horns of war are sounded.

The standard bearers are specially selected, trained, and anointed for their position. The standard bearer must undergo an ancient ritual where the standard is attuned to them. Such Standard Bearers are specially bonded with the Apocalypse Standard, and undergo extensive training, as well as a series of rituals that ensure that the wielder fit to wield such an unholy artifact. Others may use the standard, but its powers may not all be accessible, as the Apocalypse Standard desires.

The Apocalypse Standards were each blessed by the Dark Gods, and are of unimaginable power. Attacking the form of the standard with physical and magical attacks that reduce the Standard’s hit points causes the Standard to fall into inertia and a form of hibernation. As an artifact, such action cannot destroy the item, but reduces it greatly in power. The Standard—each of which has its own name—must be healed, and defiled anew in a special, vile ceremony that “reawakens” the Standard, and heals it to full strength again. The Apocalypse Standard has the following special properties that can be invoked by the Standard itself, should it desire to do so, or upon command by the attuned wielder.

The Apocalypse Standard has all of the physical and magical properties of an Maximum Advanced Balor. The Balor has been bound up within the twisted creation of the terrifying Apocalypse Standard.


HD: 39d8+234 hit points. (546 hit-points)
AC: 38 (-1 size/+20 Natural/+0 DEX)
Abilities:
STR: 33 (+12)
DEX: 11 (+0)
CON: 23 (+06)
INT: 20 (+5)
WIS: 20 (+5)
CHA: 16 (+3)

The artifact is quite intelligent, and capable of all such forms of communication as speech, and Telepathy. The Apocalypse Standard has access to all such knowledge skills that it has inherently. Additional powers include:

(1) Wielder has free use of Evasion
(2) Wielder has free use of Uncanny Dodge
(3) Wielder has free use of Improved Initiative
(4) Wielder has free use of Blind-Fight
(5) True Seeing at will
(6) Telekinesis; (250-lb. Maximum; 1 minute each use.) 2/day
(7) Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
(8) The Abyssal Runes act as Symbol(any); (Heightened to 9th level; DC 29 2/day)
(9) Special Purpose: Defend the servants of Evil
(10) Special Purpose Power: +4 Luck bonus on all saving throws; +4 Deflection bonus to AC; Provides Spell Resistance 28 to the wielder
The Apocalypse Standard can Read languages, and Read Magic, in addition to Speech and Telepathy.

INT: 20 (+5)
WIS: 20 (+5)
CHA: 16 (+3)
EGO: 56

(1) +10
(2) Unholy Power
(3) Chaotic Power
(4) Dread: Good Outsiders
(5) Dread: Lawful
(6) Icy Blast

The item usually fights in the form of a Halberd, but in close combat, as a Free Action, the Apocalypse Standard can change form to that of a Scythe. The standard can switch forms as desired by the wielder. In Scythe form, however, the various Army Spells cannot be so invoked, for the standard bearer is not then visible to the rest of his allies.

The Apocalypse Standard provides the following Army Spells, and additional properties to the attuned Standard Bearer, as appropriate.

Symbol(any) 7/Day
Power Word Kill 7/Day
Stoneskin: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Empowered Bull Strength: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Spells: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Arrows: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mirror Image: 7/Day
Mass Haste: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mass Heal: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Magic Circle Against Good: 7/Day
Antilife Shell: 7/Day
Unholy Aura: 7/Day
Glyph of Warding: 7/Day
Freedom of Movement: Wielder only; Constant
Forbiddance: 7/Day
Fog Cloud: 1200-Feet Radius; 800 Feet High; At Will
Flame Strike (Energy Substitution-Cold): 7/Day
Ice Storm: 7/Day
Emotion: All creatures within range of sight, as appropriate; 7/Day
Divine Favor: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Dispel Good: 7/Day
Detect Good: Constant; At Will.
Deeper Darkness: 1200-Feet Radius; 7/Day

All such spells are invoked at a minimum of 20th level in ability, as appropriate.
These properties are in addition to those inherent within the Balor-standard, who can cast inherent spells and spell-like abilities.

 

[mmadsen]

How about a rain of Disjunction instead?

Good idea, but that seems like a very, very powerful effect compared to 1hp/round (Ref negates).

It does remind me of Monte Cook's free Black Rain adventure though:

When the dreaded black rain falls, all those who revere deities or rely on them for power and protection cringe in fear. The black rain forms a wall between the mortal and the divine and thus, when it falls, clerics lose all ability to cast spells and work miracles. Only the foulest of villains would use this opportunity to strike against the near-helpless clerics of an otherwise powerful temple.

Perhaps we can come up with an epic spell that separates the holy Vallorean army from its divine guidance.

 

[ashockney]

Wow

Ok, this is the coolest thread ever. I've often thought of what our modern "advanced" tech world would be like in an "advanced" magic world. I agree with the whole setup, and think it's cool as hell, and would kill to help or participate in it!

Ok, having said all that, here's some recommendations:

First, taking drawing from the US army's modern-day challenges, I think the issues here are very similar. Our Mallenar forces are outgunned, outmanned, and pinned in a corner. Judging from the breakdown, thus far we have very few advantages, among them, they include: the element of home territory, the element of deeper supplies/reserves, the element of surprise (to a lesser extent), and it would appear that our "specialists" have the upper hand in brute strength (giants, ogres, etc.) and versatility (werewolves, vampires, and Wang-Liang). Elements that are up in the air include: the weather, other environmental factors, arcane magic, and magic items. I'm unclear and would be interested in more information on any of these areas for further exploration as a means to enhance our chances.

On the weaknesses side they have an extremely potent "leadership" (the PC's), we are definitely outnumbered, their rank and file make ours look like a joke, their specialists are dedicated to eliminating ours, and they clearly have the upper hand in divine magic.

So, if you assume these things to be true, then I would suggest going the following direction:

1) Home-field advantage: I believe this is the primary advantage of our forces...we must choose when and where to fight. Without this, we are certainly cleric fodder. Under all circumstances, we must seek to outgun the opposing force (you really won't be able to outnumber them) and leverage the strength of our specialists. Examples of this include, ambushes from range in the dark, in forests, using surprise, leveraging magic (particularly) arcane, and loading down these strike forces with as much magical items, as well as undead or summoned support, as can easily be made available. The key will be to get in as much damage as possible and get as many of our forces out alive. Another example would be to hold a HIGHLY defensible position with powerful weapons and specialists (anti-magic and brute strength - such as cannon-ball throwing giants, I love that idea). We will have to use cover, conealment, and magical defense as much as possible for this to have an impact.
2) Misdirection: We seem to have a great deal of specialist forces with the ability to offer differing degrees of misdirection. The Wang-Liang, Vampires, and Werewolves through summoning, skills, and spells can keep the opposing forces guessing. I think this will have to be leveraged extensively to keep the opposing forces moving in the direction WE want them to. We must walk them down the path of GREATEST resistance, and they've got to THINK they're making the right choices all along the way. The primary disadvantage to this tactic will be the specialist forces of our opponents. I think pre-emptive strikes on the Vallorean's "rangers" and "communications" might also be worthwhile targets for our specialist forces to aid in the efforts of misdirection. A significant hit in any of these areas could greatly enhance our chances for success.
3) Supplies: I assume we have to get some kind of advantage for our supplies being local. As a result, we must attack their resources. If the food is coming magically, what can we do or create to screw with their magical food creation! I would also argue that a powerful enough disease infestation could have a significant impact to their forces, particularly if it costs us little resources to inflict the attack, and it costs them significant resources to defend against the attack (both in time and spell use). I agree we must definitely attack their supply lines in any other way possible to slow, hinder, or impede the "whole" army's progress, or we will always be outnumbered and outgunned. Magic items can be overcome, and it sounds to me like their entire armies rations are dependent upon this magical supply, we could conceivably do more damage to the army by marshalling our entire resources to attacking their food supply instead of trying to attack them directly.
4) Efficiency: Sacrificial mission anyone? There were jokes above about landing a one-shot imprisonment...but, what would stop a high level rogue from getting that touch spell off of a scroll (16th - 20th level) and potentially taking out one of the opponent's primary leaders (the PC's - lvl 30+). Also see other no-save, you're dead spells like Harm, Power Word, Otto's and so on, that rogues could use. I think this would be worth it, in spades. Plus, take out anything else he can get while he's there! What if a strike forces successfully got a kill at night while sleeping, and the PC Leader was replaced by a disguised high-level Wang-Liang (30th), who could get access to the party, and take out as many of the high-level spellcasters as possible with surprise. I think the same types of missions would have to be run at lower levels. Sending sacrificial Hobgoblins or Undead into the heart of the attack force with a handful of "necklace of missiles" or forcebombs to drop. Any exchange where we have one 4th level smutz or undead taking out 3 or more 8th level guys is a good exchange in our book. How about some low-level arcane trigger spells that detonate fireballs, lightning bolts, and the like when a low level putz is killed (or destroyed by turning).
5) Allies: In all seriousness, we are massively outgunned here. I don't think it would be uncalled for to have a little "tactical" surprise for the PC's in the form of some "really bad-ass" EPIC spell effects (ie, nuclear or bio-chem effects) or unforseen allies (ie, drow, beholder, illithid, dragons...all of the above) that might make the combat otherwise a little more intriguing.

How we'll definitely lose:
1) Fighting any war in the open field.
2) Fighting in any kind of "fair" fight.
3) Their specialists outhink our specialists and beat ours.
4) Their leaders use magic to get past our defenses first and use their powerful spells and abilities to clear the path for their army to advance (rinse and repeat).
5) Victory conditions change and the Valloreans are willing to take significant losses in order to finalize this mission. Most of the above assumes that the Valloreans will give up far sooner than we will because they are an "invading force" and can't afford to do enough damage to their army that they would jeopardize their homeland defense. We can't be the only enemy in the world, can we?

Good luck!

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Wow

Ok, this is the coolest thread ever.

I'm glad you like it, ashockney. Have you read the original thread? It may provide some more background if you're really interested.

Hopefully SHARK will come up for air soon, so he can share more thoughts with us.

Home-field advantage: I believe this is the primary advantage of our forces...we must choose when and where to fight.

What makes this situation a bit odd is that the things that make for a good ambush against mundane forces aren't much of an issue against the epic-level Champions of Vallorea. We can lead the legions straight into a muddy ravine with enfilading fire from dug-in archers on either side, and it still doesn't matter much. The Champions are the real threat. What do we do to set them up?

Misdirection: We seem to have a great deal of specialist forces with the ability to offer differing degrees of misdirection. The Wang-Liang, Vampires, and Werewolves through summoning, skills, and spells can keep the opposing forces guessing.

Since the Valloreans have sentries who can see through most illusions, we need to use these powers in a way that overwhelms the rank-and-file troops. As I've said before, an ambush by invisible troops shows up on "radar". We need to use our invisibility and illusions cleverly. Suggestions?

Supplies: I assume we have to get some kind of advantage for our supplies being local.

In the absence of logistic magic, certainly, but we need a way to take out the Vallorean MRE packs before that becomes a meaningful advantage.

Efficiency: Sacrificial mission anyone? There were jokes above about landing a one-shot imprisonment...but, what would stop a high level rogue from getting that touch spell off of a scroll (16th - 20th level) and potentially taking out one of the opponent's primary leaders (the PC's - lvl 30+).

What would you use to keep out Rogues and Assassins? Forbiddance? Magical sentries? Force Walls?

The Valloreans should have some measures in place -- and we should have similar measures! We know the Champions are coming for us!

Sending sacrificial Hobgoblins or Undead into the heart of the attack force with a handful of "necklace of missiles" or forcebombs to drop. Any exchange where we have one 4th level smutz or undead taking out 3 or more 8th level guys is a good exchange in our book.

Hobgoblins may have excellent morale, but I don't see them volunteering for certain death. Undead on the other hand...

 

[ashockney]

Tactical Examples

Ok, it's clear from your "pointing" you're looking for more explicit tactical maneuvers to illustrate the strategy. Here are a few thoughts:

I agree the true threat is the Vallorean Champions. Therefore, I would take the battle to them, early and often. Keep them reeling, and force them to use/replenish their resources. I'm still not sure how much "rope" I've got to come up with random stuff, from what books, using what prestige classes, and using what magic items (and what level of magic items). So, I'm just going to start throwing some stuff out there.

Attack ethereally. Use this and scrying to get close to "stage" the battle. If their defenses are really strong, they'll have a chance to avoid the "surprise" effect, but not prevent the assault. Depending on how many of the champions we can catch at one time, we either bring a fairly large force (say 50+) or, I would much prefer to take groups of 5 - 10 into attacks on individual champions (who are separated) with a simultaneous strike. I would go in with Rogues supported by powerful warriors, with support from sorc/wiz. For example (2 x 20th level rogue, supported by 6 x20th level giant and ogre fighters, and 2 x Wiz/Sor). For the rogues, take Shadowdancer to use Hide in Plain Sight ability, enhance this with items (cloak/boots) and spells (wieldskill) to get this bonus ridiculously high (hopefully out of range for all the champions except the rogues). Rogues should also be prepared to use high-level magic items and spells off scrolls. Also use spells and abilities like "brilliant energy" or "touch attacks" against the warriors. These will make quick work of warrior-types without the high AC or spell support. Against arcane spellcasters, surround and conquer. Any well With surprise, they will make short work of the opponent. For equipped band of 20th level warriors, supported by some mordenkainen's or Greater Dispellings should be able to hack their way through any defenses put up. For your fighter ogre/giants maximize their damage potential, and the capacity to overcome defenses easily (without magic) using things like blind fighting, power attack, wf/ws, +5 weapons, unholy, chaotic, etc. When fighting champion clerics, it's all about spell casters. Drop bombs on them from as far away as possible, they shouldn't have any reflexes to speak of, and typically can't hang with their hit points. The key being to wipe them out overwhelming and blowing through their hit points quickly. Greater Dispellings will also go a long way against divine casters. Also note that the dispellings in ANY assault will also force the champions to spend more of their precious resources "reloading" particularly the "all-day" buffs they have available to them. Against other rogues, hit 'em hard with no save and/or fort save spells. All it takes are one or two of these to connect and finish the job.

If you get the element of surprise, have your supporting sorcerers t-port them into the room surrounding the champions. This positioning is critical, particularly against the spellcasters. You've got to try and stop them from getting spells off if possible by forcing high damage concentration checks.

Critical to the success of this hit-and-run tactic, are contingency effects that get you THE HELL out of there the second things start to look bad. If you lose these strike forces, you are in BIG trouble. The point is to get in, do the damage, and get the hell out! Literally one, or two rounds at the MOST.

How would I stop the opponent from doing this to me? Prismatic anything, as big as you can make it! As many minions and summoned monsters as possible (particularly tanarri) who can stand guard in the ethereal plane, and warn of this. Heavy use of divination spells such as Foresight, to get as much warning possible. More importantly, this is YOUR home turf! IF someone is dumb enough to come find you, I'd let them in...and BLOW THEM AWAY. SURROUND YOURSELF with UNDEAD (x200) and CONSTRUCTS(x50) and Illithids(x20) with heavily laden traps and triggers and hung spells, using spells that "hang" spells in a set location, and Contingency/Chain Contingency and Simbul's Spell Sequencers, and Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle and Symbols and Greater Glyphs of Warding to trigger magic effects with saves (Slay Living), without saves (Harm and Reverse Gravity and Power Words), all this plus tons of "triggered" and permanent Prismatic Walls, Prismatic Spheres, Illusionary Wall, Otiluke's Dispelling Shields, plus Anti-magic shells, dead magic zones, and Walls of Force. Bring it on!!!

Another note, about a gaping hole in the high level core rules. Many of the good defensive location spells are ok, but there is significant room for improvement on spells like: Guards and Wards, Forbiddance, and anything that would prevent ethereal travel into a keep. I've got a couple of such spells if interested...

Taking out the Vallorean MRE packets...Epic Dispelling/Negation/Disjunction spells. Doesn't have to be a super-high level effect. Simply negates spells and abilities in a huge area of say 1st or 2nd level. I assume we're talking "create food and water" here. Hell, I think I could justify a 5th/6th level spell that permenantly negated the magic of a "1st level" device (potion, +1 sword, MRE pack) with a successful Dispelling check. Now you're talking 6 - 8 shots of this spell coming from mid-level sorcerers. Strike forces of undead who use Rods of Negation or Negation spells to assault in "waves" and take out communication or MRE packs. Again, travel ethereal or t'port there. Get one shot off, then go gaseous and get out. As they begin to react, the next two waves strike, from different, and opposing directions. Keep them moving, and keep them guessing. Enough strikes against the MRE's, particularly with minimal losses to your forces, and you've just given yourself significant advantage over your opponent!

Muddy valley??? You're thinking too modern day combat. We are dug into the trenches beneath the forest floor, using magic to pass attacks and move through the ground (burrow, gaseous, ethereal, incorpreal). If you want to fight us, come invade the "tombs of horrors" we've established beneath the forest. It is full of natural traps, deadfalls, and loaded with defensive spells! Humans are the opposing force? How about some BIG BARS on the other side of BIG DOORS that allows are big OGRES and GIANTS to trap small bands of humans, then pound them with cannon and arrow fire, or cave it in, or fill it with poison gas, or drown them. True sight doesn't see through walls or the ground! Another note on true-sight, straight out of the PH, this works up to 120 feet. That means invisibility works JUST FINE until you get REALLY, REALLY close in combat terms. Not melee, but certainly within range of full attack actions with missile weapons and cannon fire. So, I picture misdirection as using illusions and darkness and mist to reduce visibility, taking it down to true sight or nothing...get underneath them, then burrow, move earth, reverse gravity, blink, pop in-and-out.

Here's another example: you get a few hundred hobgoblin/human grunts close with invisibility or illusion (such as hallucinatory terrain) and stock them up with potions of true strike, "Greater Magic Weapon" Crossbow Bolts, and Heavy Crossbow. Get your infiltrators (undead, werewolves, wang-liang) in close using t-port, disguise, or ethereal travel, then use them to drop Obscuring Mist and Faerie Fire simultaneously "highlighting" who to target for your hobgoblins. The infiltrators then turn their attention on the "standard bearers" or MRE packs. The hobgoblins start raining auto hits for 1d10+5 points of damage a piece down on the unsuspecting forces (from 180' away)x200 or more. Take another potion the next round and do it again. The hobgoblins begin a retreat, while others begin to summoned monsters and ice storms (no save, and most undead and half-fiends will resist). Finally, on your way out, use enchantment/charm spells to get rid of those damn standards! Spells like Otto's, Dominate, Greater Command "Drop", and Greater Command "Throw" can give you a chance to drop it in a portable hole and get out. In the span of about three to five rounds, with minimal (or hopefully no) losses to your forces, you could deal a heavy blow to an advance group of the Vallorean army. All of a sudden, I really like our chances in the followup battle, particularly if it's on OUR terms, in a location of our choosing and preparation.

Let me know if this is the kind of thing you're looking for!

 

[Tiefling]

This is D&D. No matter how ingenious the tactic, there's always some way to counter it.

 

[The Iron Mark]

ashockney, go post up those spells of yours! Oh, here's a last ditch effort if Evil is a really sore loser.....

Black Hole
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 0 ft.
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factor: reduce casting time to one round (+18 DC). Mitigating factor: 39d6 backlash (-39 DC)

This spell creates a black hole: a zero-dementional singularity with a force of gravity that even light cannot escape. It immediately sucks in and destroys anything within 20,000 miles (i.e. the planet the caster is standing on) with no save or SR, as this is simply the effects of a conjured item. Even the atmosphere of the planet is consumed. The gravity of the black hole collapses anything pulled into it into a volume smaller than an electron. After 20 hours, the black hole dissapears and the planet is irrevocably gone. The caster takes 39d6 damage from casting the spell, but that dosen't matter because the caster will be sucked into the black hole along with everything else on the planet.

Nothing like the world being destroyed to spice up your life eh?

 

[mmadsen]

Black Hole
To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factor: reduce casting time to one round (+18 DC). Mitigating factor: 39d6 backlash (-39 DC)

I don't think I'd let an unmodified DC-21 Conjure Seed summon the nigh-infinite mass of a black hole just because it might fit within the 20' radius...

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Tactical Examples

Keep them reeling, and force them to use/replenish their resources.

What resources in D&D are easy to deplete? Just about everything comes back the next day if you've got high-level spellcasters. Diseases, negative levels, hit-point damage, curses, and the spells used up to fix them, they're all extremely temporary problems.

So what resources can we actually deplete? In SHARK's world, the dead stay dead (or use up Fate Points to pull through), so injuring enemy soldiers isn't much help, but finishing them off is. Also, the Valloreans rely heavily on magic items. Destroying those powerful and expensive items (or burying them under lava) certainly hurts them and helps us. Using up wand charges, scrolls, and potions might be worth something, but I have to wonder. Any one skirmish probably only uses up one or two charges of a wand's 50.