D&D 5E How would you handle EPIC levels?

[Astrosicebear]

The DMG may or may not touch on levels above 20th.

How would you handle EPIC design? How would you balance simplicity, feel, power?

 

[shamsael]

I thought the final 4 or 5 levels in the PHB were supposed to cover Epic play.

If we're talking about adding something to the end of the progression, I like the idea that "epic" play means hitting the end of the level progression and instrad advancing in other ways.

 

[Boarstorm]

I kind-of like how E6 and such offer continual advancement. Every so often you hit a benchmark that allows you to grow your character laterally instead of vertically. I'm not sure what you'd offer in 5E. ASIs? Feats?

 

[KarinsDad]

I kind-of like how E6 and such offer continual advancement. Every so often you hit a benchmark that allows you to grow your character laterally instead of vertically. I'm not sure what you'd offer in 5E. ASIs? Feats?

Yes, I think that god-like abilities in a game system always cause it to break down. I'd much rather see a level 20 Rogue / 20 Wizard than a level 40 Wizard / Demigod.

 

[Astrosicebear]

5e does have a valid action economy. And one that works well. Breaking that economy, even for epic characters can be a bad thing.

So we see that there are two ways forward, grow laterally, or vertically. Scale in power, or scale in versatility. Stopping at lvl 20 with a hard cap forces lateral movement. Im a fighter, but now I'm going to learn to be a rogue. While I will have more things I can do, I cant do them all. Im still stronger, but not by much. This effect creates very gestalt characters, good at many things, master of something.

The flip side is a continued progression, where power scales up. As a post-20th fighter, you may get epic feats, abilities, its own progression etc. This creates god-like characters, and does feel more epic than the first way. But it also introduces a scaling power level that is very hard to manage and balance.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

If I had to...

I'd still cap max level at 20 for "class". Then, I'd totally change up the XP progression, making XP requirements significantly larger (say, +300k xp per level above 20th, so 21st would need 655,000, 22nd would need 955,000, etc). I'd list it as "Epic" for the 'class'. So you'd have Fighter/Epic 20th/2nd.

Now that that is out of the way, I'd really change it up; everyone would get 'stuff' based on their race...not class. Those things would be things that allow them to "skirt around" the rules system without actually breaking it. Those things wouldn't really be "kewl new powazz". For example, a Wood Elf might get to use his "Mask of the Wild" ability in any woodland area, regardless of obscurement; or a Tiefling might get his Darkvision increased to 120', but with the added benefit of being able to actually distinguish colors and not just shades of gray.

I'd most definitly NOT keep increaseing HD/hp, Proficiency Bonus, Stat(Feat) Addition, etc. Basically, all the "numbers" would stop at 20th. The only thing gaining more levels after 20th is going to do is enhance or slightly modify abilities you were born with (re: racially oriented stuff).

To me, this would keep within the confines of not "breaking" the balance of 5e's BA, but still account for those exceptionally rare individuals that keep on adventuring long past the point when they really should have settled down, started a family, and retired. Those types wouldn't really learn any "new tricks", they'd just increase or otherwise 'perfect' their old ones.

PS: As I read that, it strongly reminds me of the Racial Levels from Monty Cook's Arcana Unearthed book. You could gain up to 3 levels of your Race; each one making you closer and closer to the epitome of your species.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Astrosicebear]

To me, this would keep within the confines of not "breaking" the balance of 5e's BA, but still account for those exceptionally rare individuals that keep on adventuring long past the point when they really should have settled down, started a family, and retired. Those types wouldn't really learn any "new tricks", they'd just increase or otherwise 'perfect' their old ones.

PS: As I read that, it strongly reminds me of the Racial Levels from Monty Cook's Arcana Unearthed book. You could gain up to 3 levels of your Race; each one making you closer and closer to the epitome of your species.

True, but I dont see how becoming a better human has anything to do with me being the best swordsman in the land.

 

[Minigiant]

Templates which at as feats. You just get more HD and snag epic feats/templates or ability increases.

 

[Astrosicebear]

I might like to see a soft touch. No large scale charts or XP lists, or feat lists.

Instead, levels past 20th are dealt with by creating Epic Destinies.

Once a character hits 20th level they discuss with their DM what they want their Epic Destiny to be. Examples:

"I want to be the best swordsman in the world, renowned for ages. I will seek the best weapons and training in my quest."

"I want to know all the secrets of the world. The ancient lore of Clerics and Wizards will be mine."

"Being the best thief isnt good enough until you've stolen something from the gods themselves. And what better to steal, than my own immortality."

"The world isn't safe until there is someone protecting it forever. Even though the dark lord is defeated, there is always a bigger evil."

Once you've settled on a destiny, your epic adventures continue. As you level past 20th you can either take a new level in a new class, or gain an epic rank. You can gain a few "godlike" powers at certain epic ranks. Discuss these powers with your DM, but they should fall in the same power level as a monster's Legendary Abilities.

XP to level is +20% of previous level. Prof. does not increase. HP does increase.

 

[steeldragons]

I like Paul Ming's "Epic" idea.

Could be done even as little as a 5 Epic Level "mini-game":
Epic ranks 1-2 = Demigod
3-4 = lesser deity
5 = greater deity.


Or give it a nice tease n' blow out to, like 10 levels:
Epic levels 1-3 = Immortal
4-5 = Demi-god
6-7 = lesser deity
8-9 = moderate deity
10 = greater deity

Each "tier" of godhood (Immortal, Demi-, Lesser, Mod, Greater) comes with a/some (1-3) special power(s) + Epic "Feats"/Godly Powers that are all, relatively, class-independent that you can choose...1 for each rank.

Sounds simple enough, "epic" feeling, and the PCs can still stay more or less balanced with each other and have some concept of balance with possible immortal foes, divine nemeses, and epic monsters.

Yeah. Works for me. That's what I'd do if I were forced to play at Epic levels....actually sounds like it could be fun.