D&D 5E How would you handle EPIC levels?

[Minigiant]

If the "something else" is defined by new (smaller) numbers, then I don't see a very big difference.

If the "something else" is defined by story elements and fiction, then that can be done regardless of any change in numbers.

For instance, in most versions of D&D a Prince of Hell has bigger numbers than a (say) 10th level PC. Allowing a PC to become a Prince of Hell looks potentially interesting to me, even if the PC's numbers also continue to grow on a par with what a Prince of Hell's numbers would typically look like.

The "something else" would have to follow the same ideals of 5e. Your numbers don't grow much but you get more uses of them, the limitations on it are lessened or even removed, more applications are added to it, and/or the speed of it is increased.

An epic barbarian would not get more damage.
Instead an epic barbarian would rage to get the ability to smash the Forcecage around him and then hurl a hunk of smashed force or a rock at the wizard who is now deafened and frighten due to a bonus action Roar of Rage. And his pants turns purple.

 

[pemerton]

The "something else" would have to follow the same ideals of 5e. Your numbers don't grow much but you get more uses of them, the limitations on it are lessened or even removed, more applications are added to it, and/or the speed of it is increased.

Agreed.

while it might be fine to cap the proficiency bonus at +6 for attacks and saving throws, I don't really think it would be fine for skills.

That's because I expect epic characters to do epic tasks: swim up a waterfall, jump down a chasm, survive a year in the desert, climb a glacier, hear a butterfly passing by, intimidate a dragon...

I think the best model for this sort of thing isn't increases in skill bonuses (which in 5e largely means increases in stats), but rather something along the lines of 4e's skill powers.

I think that would also be in line with Minigiant's comments about the "ideals of 5e".

 

[amerigoV]

I think you should get Legendary Actions and an Epic Lair, and then lower level adventurers invade your space, try to kill you and then take your stuff.

 

[Prism]

This is what we are doing with our converted campaign (23rd level)

Proficiency continues using the DMG monster scale
Class levels are limited to 20 - we really don't want to invent new class levels for the sake of it. You are the best you can be (in that field) works well for us
Multi-classing is the assumed method of 'mundane' progression - more breadth (and hit points)
The big stuff will be not be linked to level progression and will all be quest based. For example one character is a Chosen of Gond and will progress I assume by doing Gonds work
We may introduce ways of getting stats above 20 (divine power), high magic (epic spells) and innate power but that's up to the DM to introduce
We have followers, avatars, simulacrums etc to do certain adventuring in place of us
The theme is mostly planar/divine linked - my character works in his own demiplane, summers in Lantan and winters on the first level of hell

 

[Minigiant]

I think you should get Legendary Actions and an Epic Lair, and then lower level adventurers invade your space, try to kill you and then take your stuff.

That's how I'd do a legendary swordsman or master archer. Especially since the want the fighter to be as generic as possible.

A Legendary swordsman fighter would be a simple "I attack" guy....
'cept he attacks 4 times on his turn,
he attacks 4 more times after using Action surge
then he attacks once after he kills the pit fiend,
he attacks once after he wounds the other pit fiend with a critical hit,
he attacks once after using second Wind,
he attacks once on his dimension pope cleric ally's turn,
he attacks once on the prince of thieves' turn,
he attacks once on the archmage ally's turn,
he attacks once when the dragon attacks him on the dragon's turn
he attacks twice when the dragon tries to fly away.
Then its his turn again.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

That's how I'd do a legendary swordsman or master archer. Especially since the want the fighter to be as generic as possible.

A Legendary swordsman fighter would be a simple "I attack" guy....
'cept he attacks 4 times on his turn,
he attacks 4 more times after using Action surge
then he attacks once after he kills the pit fiend,
he attacks once after he wounds the other pit fiend with a critical hit,
he attacks once after using second Wind,
he attacks once on his dimension pope cleric ally's turn,
he attacks once on the prince of thieves' turn,
he attacks once on the archmage ally's turn,
he attacks once when the dragon attacks him on the dragon's turn
he attacks twice when the dragon tries to fly away.
Then its his turn again.

Except that's not Epic. That's just "more". I mean, a Decapuss gets 9 attacks a round...is it Epic? Simply "growing the numbers" isn't going to cut it as far as I'm concerned. An Epic thing is something unique and "outside the reach of mortal kin", so to speak. A commoner seeing this would be amazed, but wouldn't likey register that as "epic"...just "really good at fighting", at least that's how they'd explain it. Swimming up a waterfall? Sounds a bit silly to me, but I'd definitely say it fits into the "Epic" feel. How would a commoner explain that? Simply saying "hes a really good swimmer" isn't quite going to ring true...so being able to do that becomes a "thing" that people will tell others about. However, being able to do that should NEVER be a simple matter of "I have lots of bonuses in the skill Swim". I don't care how high your Swim skill is, you can not "break the laws of physics". The only reason a character should be able to do this is via magic or having a level or two of "Epic".


Again, I have to reiterate, simply bumping up the numbers or giving "more" isn't Epic to me...it's just, well, boringly more of the same. I want Epic to feel Epic; like it's something that only happens once in a thousand years. That kind of thing, not just "Oh, he had 17 attacks, I guess he must be Epic level...*shrug*...".

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Minigiant]

Hiya.



Except that's not Epic. That's just "more". I mean, a Decapuss gets 9 attacks a round...is it Epic? Simply "growing the numbers" isn't going to cut it as far as I'm concerned. An Epic thing is something unique and "outside the reach of mortal kin", so to speak. A commoner seeing this would be amazed, but wouldn't likey register that as "epic"...just "really good at fighting", at least that's how they'd explain it. Swimming up a waterfall? Sounds a bit silly to me, but I'd definitely say it fits into the "Epic" feel. How would a commoner explain that? Simply saying "hes a really good swimmer" isn't quite going to ring true...so being able to do that becomes a "thing" that people will tell others about. However, being able to do that should NEVER be a simple matter of "I have lots of bonuses in the skill Swim". I don't care how high your Swim skill is, you can not "break the laws of physics". The only reason a character should be able to do this is via magic or having a level or two of "Epic".


Again, I have to reiterate, simply bumping up the numbers or giving "more" isn't Epic to me...it's just, well, boringly more of the same. I want Epic to feel Epic; like it's something that only happens once in a thousand years. That kind of thing, not just "Oh, he had 17 attacks, I guess he must be Epic level...*shrug*...".

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Well the idea is that the legendary swordman can attack anytime anyhow and in anyway.

The issue I brought upnis that D&D on one Hans like something's generic but Epic D&D is all about specifics. So an epic swordsman could maybe swim up waterfalls, climb up sheer walls, and hear bufferfly wings at 100 feet, there isn't much to do wit epic weaponry but more attacks or more damage while staying in 5e' style of design. So you'd have to go off the deep end with cleaving through mountains with mundane blades or make a guy who attacks a whole lot. Or have the player simply call hits and misses for his epic warrior.

 

[Wrathamon]

Epic Destinies was a cool concept in 4e. Basically, prestige class for with a goal to achieve immortality.

I think you could do something similar.

 

[steeldragons]

While I agree with @pming 's posts here...and he posted about it not being something with "features" or measurable gains...I'm just gonna riff off of my idea/what I was thinking about here for a minute to see how it might actually work.

Epic Rank 1 [next rank at X00,000 XP] : Immortal
You gain the following Epic Aspect:
Immortality: You no longer age, suffer from issues of health, and will not die of natural causes. You have immunity to: [natural] disease, [natural] poisons, fatigue and extreme [naturally occuring] temperatures, mundane weapons.
You are no longer require food or drink to sustain your body.
You can hold your breath (underwater, in hostile environments, in space, etc...) for a number of rounds equal to your level prior to becoming Immortal.

You may select one Epic Feature of Immortal status:
Immortal Features
-Your primary weapon or item becomes the equivalent of a +4 enchanted item (to hit & damage for weapons, AC for armor and shields, saves vs. magic for cloaks, etc...)
-You can jump, leap, run, fly[by spell/item], swim or otherwise move at double your race's movement rate in a single round, at will, as often as desired.
-You are immune to a particular type of magic. Specify: Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion. This feature may be taken multiple times.
-You are immune to a particular type of damage. Specify: Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, Fire, Cold, Lightning, Thunder, Acid. This feature may be taken multiple times.

Epic Rank 2 [next rank at Y00,000 XP] : Immortal
You may select one Epic Feature of Immortal status.

Epic Rank 3 [next rank at Z00,000 XP] : Demigod
You gain the following Epic Aspect:
Spirit Form: You transcend your physical body, discorporating/incorporating your physical form, at will. You can appear/disappear from the physical world, as you wish, and transit from location to location anywhere in the Prime Material Plane or any Inner Plane through the ethereal plane.
You can hear the prayers of followers.
You can, one per round, at will, cast any Divine spell level 1-3.

You may select one Epic Feature of Demigod or lesser status:
Demigod Features
-You can bestow Divine spells of level 1-3 upon those you deem worthy.
-You can turn a trusted mount, animal companion or familiar an immortal creature of celestial, faye, shadow or infernal. The near-divine creature receives the Immortality aspect and the same Immortal Features as the demigod. This feature may be taken multiple times.
-You are immune to a particular type of magic. Specify: Conjuration, Transmutation, or Necromancy. This feature may be taken multiple times.
-You are immune to a particular type of damage. Specify: Radiant, Necrotic. This feature may be taken multiple times.

Epic Rank 4 [next rank at A,000,000 XP] : Demigod
You gain the following Epic Aspect: True Immortality: you no longer need to breathe to maintain your existence.
You may select one Epic Feature of Demigod or lesser status.

Epic Rank 5 [next rank at B,000,000 XP] : Lesser Power
You gain the following Epic Aspect:
Deific Domain: You select 1 area of mortal life over which you hold sway. You have complete control over this area in the mortal world, can use any magic spell of any list or magic item which effects or is related to these areas, and possess all Domain Powers ascribed to them. All spells or effects are usable one at a time, at will.
You can, at will, conjure up extraplanar beings -as appropriate to the EpicPC's alignment: angels (LG or LN), archons (Any G), faye (Any Chaotic), elementals (Any Neutral), shadows/undead (Any Evil), demons (CE), or devils (LE). These beings can be summoned up to the numbers: 5d10 of creatures 10HD or less; 2d6 of 11-15HD; or d4 (1 per round) between 16-20HD.
When in your Spirit Form, you can now transit into the Astral Plane (and on to the Outer Planes), at will.
You can, one per round, at will, use any Divine spell of level 1-5.

You main select one Epic Feature of Lesser Power or lesser status:
Lesser Power Features
-Your primary weapon or item can not/will not be wielded by any but yourself or a Greater Power. The exact nature of this is up to the player: Perhaps the weapon becomes immovable/no creature except the Epic PC can lift it. Perhaps the weapon will flare with fire or radiant energy to damage others who try to pick it up. Perhaps the weapon simply disappears, returning to Epic PC's possession.
-You can bestow Divine spells of level 4-5 upon those you deem worthy. You must possess the Demigod Feature to bestow spell levels 1-3 before taking this Lesser Power Feature.
-You can select worthy individuals in the mortal realms to act as your "Chosen", granting them Paladinic status and powers.
-You have resistance to all magic damage/effects.
-You can alter your physical appearance, size and shape, once per round, at will.

Epic Rank 6 [next rank at C,000,000 XP] : Lesser Power
Epic Aspect: Deific Domain: You may select an additional area of mortal life to include in your godly portfolio.
You main select one Epic Feature of Lesser Power or lesser status.

etc... etc...

I kinda like it.

 

[Sunseeker]

Simply.

Simply put: exactly like the rest of the game is handled now, with an increasingly fantastical visualization. Epic whip? Made of pure fire that materializes in your hand when you 'draw' it. Epic bow? Arrows that you can shoot from your third eye. Epic sword? Made from one of Tiamats fangs, roll a d4/6 and choose between *damage types*.

There are no inherent changes to the system. The numerical scale need not exponentially increase, what's important is that you LOOK, FEEL and SOUND epic. Nothing special needs to be done with the math.

Extra-leveling systems such as castles and armies are something that would need to be handled with new systems.