D&D 5E How would you handle EPIC levels?

[Selvarin]

I prefer the idea of giving characters something epic to do in order to earn an epic level. (and no, I don't subscribe to the idea of epic level characters always being known to all and/or flashy--they just happen to be known to a certain level of mortals and immortals.)


There could be:

The Path of Perfection (Focus)---a means to perfect one's craft. Personal service to a servant of the God of War, for example, in order to become an even better fighter.

The Path of Renewal (Breadth)---whereupon the character starts over as a 1st level character of another class with severe limitations on what knowledge/power is accessible from the other class until at least 10th level is achieved. Experience acquired will be almost normal (e.g., moving from 1st level to 2nd level will cost the same) albeit with a penalty, as they will still retain greater than usual HP for someone of x-level. Upon achieving 10th level in the new class they gain more access to their old class powers/feature but suffer a 50% XP penalty (or something like that).

And so on and so on.

Levels 21st-25th would be about various ways of improvement, legend making, etc., 26th-30th level however would be the Path to Godhood.

 

[Li Shenron]

The other threads about 9th level spells and 20th level abilities just gave me 2 ideas to think about... These are hardly usable yet, just think about 2 possible design areas to explore, that could give "epic" level a different feeling compared to being just a numerical extension of the regular 20 levels. Note that the specific abilities should probably be discussed and approved by the whole gaming group together, rather than standardized.

1) "always/never" abilities: pick one thing described as "my character always..." or "my character never...".

Examples might be "my character always succeeds at sneaking", "my character never fails a shoot with the bow". Therefore there is one specific type of fairly regular action where failure is completely removed, unless you happen to try the action against an epic character with a dual ability!

2) truly over-the-top spells or powers, but beyond daily: something that has effects on a whole new scale, but can't be repeated until a very long time.

Examples might be "I can cast a ritual that resurrects all the dead of a recent battle (even a whole city)" or "I can strike a mountain with my axe and split it in half (e.g. make it crumble or open a passage)", but these abilities are usable only once a month or even a year!

 

[DammitVictor]

Do you mean unbounded level progression?

I think it's going to be tricky with relation to bounded accuracy, because while it might be fine to cap the proficiency bonus at +6 for attacks and saving throws, I don't really think it would be fine for skills.

Bounded accuracy is all well and good, but I think it's the first and most necessary sacrifice in developing post-20th level play.

Don't remove the ability cap, but adjust it. It's 18 (plus racial mods) at 1st level, plus one every four levels.

Proficiency bonus increases at a fixed rate. +2 at 1st, +3 at 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th. Continue it on, 21st, 25th, 29th. The DCs for epic tasks doesn't have to be hugely inflated-- let the PCs get a taste of the action before 20th, because characters should be pretty "epic" starting in the low teens at least.

What is difficult, is that everything else in 5e depends on class and doesn't follow a regular pattern: each class has its own rate of acquiring feats/ability increases vs class features vs subclass features. Maybe after level 20, this progression can become the same for everyone, and "epic feats" can be designed like in 3e to acquire new abilities (although I think the 3e epic rules were generally regarded as unsuccessful).

In the long term, you'd need something for epic features, but for the low 20s you could get away with just increasing the numbers as long as the storylines were sufficiently epic. Mostly just to finish long campaigns before developing some kind of Immortals rules.

 

[Li Shenron]

Bounded accuracy is all well and good, but I think it's the first and most necessary sacrifice in developing post-20th level play.

Don't remove the ability cap, but adjust it. It's 18 (plus racial mods) at 1st level, plus one every four levels.

Proficiency bonus increases at a fixed rate. +2 at 1st, +3 at 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th. Continue it on, 21st, 25th, 29th. The DCs for epic tasks doesn't have to be hugely inflated-- let the PCs get a taste of the action before 20th, because characters should be pretty "epic" starting in the low teens at least.



In the long term, you'd need something for epic features, but for the low 20s you could get away with just increasing the numbers as long as the storylines were sufficiently epic. Mostly just to finish long campaigns before developing some kind of Immortals rules.

What do you think about my latest suggestions above ^ ^ ^ ?

 

[DammitVictor]

Still digesting them. I'm not sure I like weekly or monthly abilities-- I'd rather epic stuff like that should be more plot-dependent, but that's just a gut feeling.

 

[Celtavian]

I hope they go in a different direction for epic play that doesn't include number inflation. I'd rather see new abilities added post 20 while keeping the numbers relatively static. Bounded accuracy keeps the game interesting and allows for orcs and kobolds to be part of even an epic level campaign.

 

[DammitVictor]

One thing I am suddenly and forcibly reminded that there's one thing that needs taken care of if you're going to break the ability score cap:

Armor.

Armor values are set based on ability scores capping at 20; the maximum AC, barring absurdly statted Barbarians, is 20. Plate mail and shield, maxed-out Monks... raise the ability cap and you've got to do something about Medium and Heavy armor. Maybe change Medium from max +2 from Dex to half Dex bonus rounded up (so 20 provides +3), and give half proficiency to Heavy.

 

[Nebulous]

The DMG may or may not touch on levels above 20th.

How would you handle EPIC design? How would you balance simplicity, feel, power?

The final 5 levels of D&D should (IMO) segue into Epic level play. 16th-20th you become famous lords and warriors, wizards and priest-kings. Your power is vaunted and prestigious and nearly legendary. THEN...there is the Immortal's Handbook where you take the jump to demi-god status at level 21. From here the rules change, and unlike the 3.x Epic rules, this is not just bigger numbers. That's part of it, but there's more to it, and it is the gradual ascension to full godhood and bigger cosmic goals, not the accumulation of gold and wealth. It is the accumulation of power, followers, souls and immortality, while dealing with other beings who are already immortal that may not want you joining their prestigious ranks.

 

[AmerginLiath]

I think you should get Legendary Actions and an Epic Lair, and then lower level adventurers invade your space, try to kill you and then take your stuff.

All jokes aside, that's the best starting place to think from, I believe. Instead of accruing more and more abilities in the Combat sphere that will break Bounded Accuracy and change the action economy & power level too much, I'd want them to focus past Level 20 on the Exploration and Social spheres. Much as one takes/constructs a "Background" at Level 1, I'd suggest that Level 21 characters do the same with a "Legend" which offers similar minor Legendary Actions and something similar to a feature that effects the world around the character like Lair Actions do with over-20 monsters. Consider, rather than outright power, how the high-level character changes the *narrative* of a setting by their presence (just as a dragon reshapes the world by its dramatic 'gravity,' so do powerful heroes, and the abulities of an epic hero should reflect that in forming their legends more than merely cranking up numbers). I somehow think more of the Hierophant Druid operated in 1e/2e AD&D than the Epic Levels of 3e, but I don't know how to say exactly how. I think that the Epic option would be for those characters who decide NOT to retire to the logical end of settling down to castles and families at 20, but going off to become basically stories that will be remembered as something *else* as they fade into legend or ascend to glory.

(of course, I hate high-level play anyway, so I'd keep retiring characters around Level 10-12 to start new ones, regardless!)

 

[Jester David]

Honestly, Pathfinder's Mythic system works pretty well. The idea of being able to use it as epic or begin at level 1 for more superheroic characters is fun. But there's no way D&D will follow that route.

Epic Levels is one way.
This would work like a prestige class, where you add this new class atop your old class. You just gain new levels in Epic and unlock new abilities from a list. Along with new ability score boosts/feats. So you wouldn't be a level 21 fighter but a level 20 fighter/ 1 epic. If you multiclass you could instead take levels in existing classes, but this *might* be a little weaker. Proficiency would continue to increase, so you'd keep in line with epic monsters like gods and primordials.
5 levels is more than enough. Really, 3 levels would likely be fine for all the play it will see. 10 is ridiculous...

Epic gets tricky as you quickly run out of opponents. You can't just fight ancient dragons over and over. And you need to start having monsters more powerful than the established gods. If Tiamat is CR 30, what's a 31?

Plus, at that point either the abilities just get weird or it's just level 16 with higher numbers. When a PC hits level 25 what powers do you really give them? Create life? Insta-kill any mortal being under CR 10? Make demiplanes?