D&D 5E How would you handle raising dead on a PC that didn't believe in the gods?

[Igwilly]

Actually, it is quite possible to not believe in gods, talking about D&D. If the deity itself doesn’t show in the mortal world and act only through its followers…
One could simply say that all those miracles are just… magic. Another form of magic. Basically, they stopped being Black Mages and become White Mages. “Never saw a fireball before? And you think it’s some ‘superior being’ taking care of everything.”
Or…
Some people already mentioned the Athar: “All just powerful guys wanting your servitude. Move on, stop being explored.”
Or…
One could believe the gods only exist because of mortals’ faith. Basically, the gods are not real, just an effect of faith. “Stop worshipping them and nothing will happen.”
Or…
Well, I could go on and on, but the point is: to believe in something that is not real is as easy to not believe in something that is real.
Now, there is the considerably easier solution, which is the character not worshipping any gods, despite knowing their existence, for some reason.

But yeah, in this case, the DM decides what happens to the character. But, apparently, one doesn’t need to solve anything: the player already wants a new character, so there’s no problem, in my opinion, of course.

 

[Leatherhead]

My reasoning is rejecting the gods in a world where they absolutely exist is the ultimate slap in the face. Its worse than believing in the other team, because even if you believed in some evil god like Bhaal or Malar, at least you believe in a god.

I'm now curious how you handle warlocks, because that's kind of exactly how they operate.

But yeah, the wall of the faithless is how this is handled in FR canon.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I'm now curious how you handle warlocks, because that's kind of exactly how they operate.

But yeah, the wall of the faithless is how this is handled in FR canon.

Where does it say that warlocks can't worship gods? Just because you have a deal with an extraplanar entity for power in exchange for unspecifiec services, it doesn't mean you can't be religious.

 

[MarkB]

Pretty tough not to believe in gods, when their clerics cast down pillars of flame, bring back the dead, cure open wound in front of your very eyes, paralyse people, and burn undead to dust.

Wizards and bards can do most of those things between them, without calling upon a deity for power.

In some settings it's entirely viable to not believe in a deity. Eberron is built that way - the gods are remote and can only affect the world through their followers, and in most cases even their followers gain no direct guidance from them.

Faerun is another matter - the gods tend to work some fairly direct and far-reaching effects upon the world, especially any time there's an edition change. However, even then, a character might acknowledge the existence of these powerful beings without thinking of them as divine entities - simply very powerful extraplanar beings who enjoy being worshipped.

 

[Lanefan]

The point is not whether the character believes in the gods, it's whether the gods believe in the character.

If yes, and a revival is attempted, then back he goes without choice in the matter. (canon and-or rules be damned, if the gods want someone revived then revived they will be: the will of the gods thoroughly beats the will of an individual soul). If no, then any attempt at revival is going to be much more of an ordeal no matter what the soul might want...perhaps even involving travel to the deity's realm and personally entreating for his return to life (I've both run and played in adventures that were, in effect, exactly this).

And in any case, if the player doesn't want to play the revived character it can always be gracefully retired once back to life.

Lan-"another one bites the dust"-efan

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Wizards and bards can do most of those things between them, without calling upon a deity for power.

I would add a caveat to that: "...up to a certain point".

If the DM is doing his job as DM (re: being the gods, the multiverse, and everything) he can either just outright allow this...which begs the question of just why the gods are even needed. Personally I go with the old 1e standby of "low level [1st and, at most, 2nd] spells are due to devotion and knowledge in the religion and god/dess". With 3rd to 5th level spells, these spells are granted via an intermediary of the characters god; a deva, planetar, solar, devil, demon, elemental lord, greater nature spirit, etc. With 6th and 7th level spells, these are granted directly from the deity in question.

So, while a person who doesn't believe in the gods could, theoretically, learn to be a 'cleric'...even if they kept at it for months and years...once he hit level 5 and would supposedly be granted access to 3rd level cleric spells, he wouldn't. He'd likely, at that point, start to wonder if he was actually wrong about that whole 'gods' thing. I mean, if all that being a cleric was, was "preaching and memorizing a book/scroll/religious writing", and he has done that all...why does Bill, his buddy cleric there get 3rd level spells and he doesn't? How the character rationalizes this would be...interesting.

Wizard learn arcane spells; has nothing to do with a deity. Bards, paladins, etc...they have to abide by the same "granting of spells" as do clerics (with regards to divine spells). Of course, if the DM just shurgs his shoulders and says "I don't care. You're a 5th level cleric, you get 3rd level spells. Pick 'em"...well, that's fine too. Just not my particular cup o' tea.

(PS: I'd also disallow the cleric the whole "turn undead" power from day one...so that right there should be a dead..hehe..give away as to gods being real).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Ganymede81]

Just let the guy make a new character if he wants. Maybe he's bored playing his current character.

 

[MarkB]

I would add a caveat to that: "...up to a certain point".

If the DM is doing his job as DM (re: being the gods, the multiverse, and everything) he can either just outright allow this...which begs the question of just why the gods are even needed.

In the real world there's no absolute proof of the existence of gods, and belief is a matter of faith. Making gods explicitly real within a fantasy setting tends to limit explorations of the nature of faith, as it removes the need for belief. Some DMs will want to leave room for them and their players to explore such concepts, and keeping the gods remote and unquantified allows that.

Personally I go with the old 1e standby of "low level [1st and, at most, 2nd] spells are due to devotion and knowledge in the religion and god/dess". With 3rd to 5th level spells, these spells are granted via an intermediary of the characters god; a deva, planetar, solar, devil, demon, elemental lord, greater nature spirit, etc. With 6th and 7th level spells, these are granted directly from the deity in question.

So, while a person who doesn't believe in the gods could, theoretically, learn to be a 'cleric'...even if they kept at it for months and years...once he hit level 5 and would supposedly be granted access to 3rd level cleric spells, he wouldn't. He'd likely, at that point, start to wonder if he was actually wrong about that whole 'gods' thing. I mean, if all that being a cleric was, was "preaching and memorizing a book/scroll/religious writing", and he has done that all...why does Bill, his buddy cleric there get 3rd level spells and he doesn't? How the character rationalizes this would be...interesting.

I'm not sure how that relates to this topic. We're not talking about the cleric being an atheist, just the guy he's trying to Raise. That guy doesn't directly experience any of the things you're describing.

Wizard learn arcane spells; has nothing to do with a deity. Bards, paladins, etc...they have to abide by the same "granting of spells" as do clerics (with regards to divine spells). Of course, if the DM just shurgs his shoulders and says "I don't care. You're a 5th level cleric, you get 3rd level spells. Pick 'em"...well, that's fine too. Just not my particular cup o' tea.

Paladins, yes - but bards have never had any religious connotation that I'm aware of, and certainly don't in the last few editions. They cast arcane spells.

And again, this is dependent upon both the setting and the DM. In some settings, it will be religious faith in itself that allows a cleric or paladin to tap into divine energies and cast spells, even high-level spells, and that faith need not be devoted to a being that actually exists or has deific levels of power.

 

[Eltab]

The player wants to roll up a new character. Full stop.

He is OK with the death (we hope heroic) of the previous character. Don't try to tell him you won't allow the PCs to die and stay dead.

Have an out-of-character talk with the player, then with the group. Think through and summarize what they have to say. Back in-character, do some narration:
His friends try to Raise Dead him back to life. This is what loyal friends do for each other. But if he's not willing / interested, it fails ...
yet the dead soul offers some useful insight or prophecy, (so they will leave him alone), before they lose contact and it goes to its eternal fate.

 

[Igwilly]

For the record, bards in 1e cast druid spells.
But I agree with you, Eltab.