How would you write Curse of the Bloody Fangs to make sense?

[jdpacheco]

I have seen several powers like this. It seems to me that the obvious intention of (save ends) is that once the target has saved, you can no longer sustain the power.

This would be the way to interpret this...

Basically: As a minor action, do more damage (and the power doesn't end). The target has the option/opportunity on each of its turns to "get you out of its head" and thus end the effect.

 

[Bagpuss]

That comes about because the generic rules about sustaining powers are horribly written. It also mentions "effect" in the Sustain rules rather than "power," so you could argue that only things in the "Effect" line can be sustained. Really, the wording sucks on that.

Ignore the semantics of "effect" or "power", you cannot Sustain a power that isn't active. As the spell as written has no duration, it is instantaneous and so isn't active when it gets round to your turn again, thus cannot be sustained.

However, specific overrides general when there's a contradiction.

There is no specific in this case as just because a power can be sustained does not grant it any extra duration.

 

[Bagpuss]

Basically: As a minor action, do more damage (and the power doesn't end).

The problem is it already has ended since it has no duration listed.

 

[Lizard]

The problem is it already has ended since it has no duration listed.

P 278 says that powers which are "conditional" or "sustained" have durations. The implication is that if it has a "Sustained" section, it has a duration.

(4e rules could have used a second editing pass: Film at 11.)

 

[Cadfan]

While it may not be the best technical writing ever, the power as written is very clear in terms of how it should work in game.

I figured this would actually be about the fact that its an implement attack against AC. I haven't figured out yet what I think about that. I'm not sure whether its necessary for balance with a power like this, or whether it wrecks the power in comparison to other possible choices.

 

[Mengu]

This isn't any different than Curse of the Dark Dream or Crown of Madness, which also have no duration.

To me, it's clear the target becomes eligible to make saves, after the power has been sustained (since there is nothing to save against before that). I prefer it this way because it's more in line with ongoing damage powers, where you are guaranteed to have the effect apply at least once. So while I like the Warmachine approach of "Effect: Target is nibbled (save ends)," I don't think that works as intended in this case. The intention is that the target shouldn't be able to make a save until the power has been sustained.

For any power that has Sustain, but no Effect, it's as though it had the line:

Effect: This power may be sustained.

And then the description within Sustain X should be sufficient to resolve it.

If the power is meant to be sustained only on a hit, then I would expect it to be indented underneath the Hit section (eg. Hurl through Hell).

Maybe there is something I'm missing about the problem, but it all seems clear to me.

 

[Klaus]

This isn't any different than Curse of the Dark Dream or Crown of Madness, which also have no duration.

To me, it's clear the target becomes eligible to make saves, after the power has been sustained (since there is nothing to save against before that). I prefer it this way because it's more in line with ongoing damage powers, where you are guaranteed to have the effect apply at least once. So while I like the Warmachine approach of "Effect: Target is nibbled (save ends)," I don't think that works as intended in this case. The intention is that the target shouldn't be able to make a save until the power has been sustained.

For any power that has Sustain, but no Effect, it's as though it had the line:

Effect: This power may be sustained.

And then the description within Sustain X should be sufficient to resolve it.

If the power is meant to be sustained only on a hit, then I would expect it to be indented underneath the Hit section (eg. Hurl through Hell).

Maybe there is something I'm missing about the problem, but it all seems clear to me.

Ditto.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Ignore the semantics of "effect" or "power", you cannot Sustain a power that isn't active.

That was just another example of rules ambiguity, not a supporting argument for anything here.

As the spell as written has no duration, it is instantaneous and so isn't active when it gets round to your turn again, thus cannot be sustained.

As Lizard pointed out, PHB 278 says that any powers with a "Sustain" entry have durations.

There is no specific in this case as just because a power can be sustained does not grant it any extra duration.

General: You cannot sustain a power that has ended.

Specific: This power does not mention a duration, but it has a Sustain entry, therefore you must somehow be able to sustain it.

Conclusion: Ignore the sustain duration issue for this power and similar powers.

 

[CountPopeula]

I'm going to have to chime in with the "I don't see the problem" crowd. Main effect happens, then every turn you can spend a minor action to use the sustain action until the target saves.

I think a lot of these problems are nitpicky, when the design intent is abundantly clear. Remember that specific rules trump general rules.

As for customer service... why bother? They're going to give the stock answer which is "we don't want to answer in case someone answers differently later, because everyone complained about that in 3e." They've given it to pretty much everything everyone has posted that they asked.

Remember, it is okay to use your own judgement.

 

[keterys]

Hmm... so folks think that you don't have anything to save against, until after you sustain it initially? (by a rules interpretation, not a fairness interpretation)

Edit: Clarify, not saying that's wrong. It just never even occurred to me to think that, and I was annoyed that you could have someone save against the power before you ever triggered the sustain. That said, if the sustain works once without a chance for save... that's quite different.