How would you write Curse of the Bloody Fangs to make sense?

[Lizard]

Hmm... so folks think that you don't have anything to save against, until after you sustain it initially? (by a rules interpretation, not a fairness interpretation)

Edit: Clarify, not saying that's wrong. It just never even occurred to me to think that, and I was annoyed that you could have someone save against the power before you ever triggered the sustain. That said, if the sustain works once without a chance for save... that's quite different.

That would be my interpretation. I'm not an expert, of course.

 

[keterys]

Honestly, the sustain with nothing sustaining on the target until you sustain the first time is odd - I wish they'd had it trigger immediately with the save ends.

But that makes me re-examine those powers. Thanks.

Next dumb question - no mention of needing to hit (or not needing to hit) to do the sustain. Where do people feel on that? Curse of the Dark Dream being one example where sustain is regardless of hit, but at least it talks about it.

These powers could really use a couple more words.

 

[James McMurray]

However, specific overrides general when there's a contradiction. So, regardless of the normal rules for sustaining, I'd say you can in fact sustain this power thanks to the wonders of exceptions-based design, everyone's favorite buzzword (buzzphrase?). The (save ends) basically makes sense--"while(caster.sustainSpell() && !target.saves()) {caster.sustainSpell();}" if you will--though I don't think it's necessary for balance.

This right here. I think it's plain what the intent of the power is, all that's left is to play it that way.

 

[CountPopeula]

Honestly, the sustain with nothing sustaining on the target until you sustain the first time is odd - I wish they'd had it trigger immediately with the save ends.

But that makes me re-examine those powers. Thanks.

Next dumb question - no mention of needing to hit (or not needing to hit) to do the sustain. Where do people feel on that? Curse of the Dark Dream being one example where sustain is regardless of hit, but at least it talks about it.

These powers could really use a couple more words.

Personally, i think the target should get a chance to save on his first turn after the power is used, not after it's sustained. That seems to be the intent. I could be wrong, but i don't see a specific exception here that would make it work any different than any other sustain abilities.

And of course you don't need to hit to do damage with sustain. Once you hit once, you hit every turn if you sustain the power, until the target saves. Seems logical. That's why they get a save to end it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And of course you don't need to hit to do damage with sustain. Once you hit once, you hit every turn if you sustain the power, until the target saves. Seems logical. That's why they get a save to end it.

I think you're missing his point.

He doesn't mean you need to make an attack roll each time you sustain the power.

He means that when you activate the power, you make a Cha vs AC attack roll. You miss; the target takes half damage. Next round, you sustain, and the target and adjacent enemies take 1d10 damage.

The initial attack can miss, without invalidating the sustain.

-Hyp.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Unless otherwise noted, a power is instantaneous.
Two categories of duration exist, conditional and sustained.
Hence, the power is not instantaneous.

The power has neither a miss nor effect entry, therefore it must hit to do anything at all.
If it hit, it can be sustained indefinitely, regardless of saves made.
The saves are only vs. that particular instance of ongoing damage, and can be reestablished, because the duration of the power is not conditional on the save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The power has neither a miss nor effect entry, therefore it must hit to do anything at all.

The power that says "Miss: Half damage" has neither a miss nor effect entry?

The saves are only vs. that particular instance of ongoing damage, and can be reestablished, because the duration of the power is not conditional on the save.

Curse of the Bloody Fangs doesn't deal ongoing damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Danceofmasks]

My bad! That's the last time I'm posting without a PHB handy.

 

[keterys]

I honestly have no idea what they intended here. Need more data. The balance variance between 'needs to hit, target can save before you sustain at all' and 'can sustain even on miss, no save until you've sustained at least once' is immense.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My bad! That's the last time I'm posting without a PHB handy.

Also, consider Curse of the Dark Dream - no Effect or Miss entry, but you can sustain it even if the attack misses.

Consider Crown of Madness:
Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Sustain Minor: The target makes a melee basic attack against one of its adjacent allies of your choice (save ends).

The only thing "save ends" can refer to is "the power". Whether you hit or miss with the initial attack, in round 2, you may sustain. If you do not sustain, the power ends. If you do sustain, the target makes his attack against your choice of target; on his turn, he makes a save. If successful, the power ends. If not, then you may once again sustain the power on your turn.

Consider Summons of Khirad:
Hit: 2d10 + Constitution modifier psychic damage, and you teleport the target to an unoccupied square within 3 squares of you.
Sustain Minor: Make a Constitution vs. Will attack against the target. On a hit, you teleport the target to an unoccupied square within 3 squares of you. On a miss, the effect ends.

There is no Miss or Effect entry; nevertheless, if your initial attack misses, you can still sustain the power next round with a minor action, and make your Con vs Will attack. If that attack misses, you can no longer sustain the power. If that attack hits, you teleport the target, and can sustain it again next round.

Likewise Thief of Five Fates; likewise Curse of the Golden Mist; likewise Fireswarm; likewise Delusions of Loyalty. Curse of the Dark Delirium is similar, though it has an initial Miss effect as well as a Sustain that ends if the sustain attack misses.

Consider Thirsting Maw:
Hit: 4d8 + Constitution modifier damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of damage dealt.
Sustain Minor: The target takes 2d8 damage (save ends).
Each time the target takes this damage, you regain hit points equal to half the damage.

No Miss, no Effect; nevertheless, even if your initial attack misses, you can sustain the power each round until the target successfully saves, after which you may no longer sustain the power.

Consider Bigby's Icy Grasp: no Miss, no Effect, but you can sustain regardless of whether the initial attack hits (continuing a grab if you initially hit; making a new attack if you missed or release the initial target). Similarly Mordenkainen's Sword; similarly Bigby's Grasping Hand.

See Hurl Through Hell or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere for examples of powers which can only be sustained if the initial attack hits.

-Hyp.