Human Subrace Level Adjustment Question

[justinsluder]

Heritage feats are cool and all, but I'm talking about having Bob the gestalt Barbarian/Rogue being able to cast spells as a Sorcerer of a level equal to X*. He wouldn't know why he could cast the spells, it's just something he's been able to do his entire life, and without trying he gets better at it (assuming an increasing progression).

*X = whatever progression I finally decide on.

But still, what do you all think should be the level adjustments for the evolved sorcerer humans?

 

[Machiavelli]

That's how sorcerers work, per RAW. They don't train for it, they don't study for it, and they don't choose it. It happens, and they use it. Feel free to tweak the system, but I don't actually understand what it is you're asking. The abilities you describe sound like "gestalt sorcerer" abilities. Where is the conundrum we can (hopefully) help you with?

 

[Sejs]

Yes and no. They have all the spellcasting abilities of a Sorcerer but not the saving throws, skills or any hit dice whatsoever.

So they have ALL of the strenghs of the sorcerer, but none of the weaknesses, then? The crappy hit dice, the low skill points, the single good save, the horrid bab, and the lack of class features?

Scaling spellcasting like that would be at least +8 LA, and frankly shouldn't be allowed at all. It's nuts.

 

[justinsluder]

Okay, how about this:

Eldritch Human Racial Traits
• Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Human base land speed is 30 feet.
• 1 extra feat at 1st level.
• 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
• Innate Spellcasting: All eldritch humans can cast arcane spells as a Sorcerer equal to one quarter of their hit dice (minimum Sor 1). These innate Sorcerer levels are separate from any Sorcerer levels taken as class levels.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
• Level Adjustment: +?

That's what I want, just a level adjustment. I think +1 or +2 is enough. After all, even by 20th level they'll only have 2nd level spells.

What do you all think?

 

[Darklone]

Well. Make the sorcerer levels stackable with the class levels, then I'd aim at a +3... though I'd rather made it a variable LA like for dragon PCs.

This screws with my guts about what feels right by the rules or not.

Build it like the Bloodlines from UA.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Have you considered allowing racial levels ala Arcana Unearthed? Then you can have that race get special abilities that directly map onto a level.

RC

 

[freefall]

If you go with hit dice = sorcereous power
I think for every three levels you take you need to add a LA.
So if you are barbarian levels 1, 2, and 3 you have a LA of +1
For barbarian levels 4,5 and 6 your LA is +2
For barbarian levels 7,8 and 9 your LA is +3
For barbarian levels 10,11 and 12 your LA is +4
For barbarian levels 13,14 and 15 your LA is +5
Compare this to an actual barbarian Sorcerer mix -

B3/LA1 - vs S3/B1
spells - the same
HP (1/2 round down) - 24 + 3 con vs 18 + 4 con
BAB - 3 vs 2
skill points - 24 + 3 int vs 22 + 4 int
Max skill ranks - 6 vs 7
Saves - 3/1/1 vs 3/1/3

B6/LA2 - vs S6/B2
spells - the same
HP (1/2 round down) - 42 + 6 con vs 30 + 4 con
BAB - 6 vs 5
skill points - 36 + 6 int vs 32 + 8 int
Max skill ranks - 9 vs 11
Saves - 5/2/2 vs 5/2/5

B9/LA3 - vs S9/B3
spells - the same
HP (1/2 round down) - 60 + 9 con vs 42 + 12 con
BAB - 9 vs 7
skill points - 48 + 9 int vs 42 + 8 int
Max skill ranks - 12 vs 15
Saves - 6/3/3 vs 6/4/7

 

[justinsluder]

Okay, how about this:

Sorcerous Bloodline
Spells/day Spells/known
HD 0/1/2 0/1/2
1 1/0/0 1/0/0
2 2/0/0 1/0/0
3 3/1/0 2/1/0
4 3/1/0 2/1/0
5 3/1/0 2/1/0
6 4/2/0 3/1/0
7 4/2/0 3/1/0
8 4/2/0 3/1/0
9 5/3/1 4/1/1
10 5/3/1 4/2/1
11 5/3/1 4/2/1
12 6/4/1 4/2/1
13 6/4/2 5/2/1
14 6/4/2 5/2/1
15 6/5/2 5/3/1
16 6/5/3 5/3/1
17 6/5/3 6/3/1
18 6/6/3 6/3/1
19 6/6/4 6/4/2
20 6/6/4 6/4/2

How do those numbers look?

 

[The Grackle]

Okay, how about this:

Eldritch Human Racial Traits
• Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Human base land speed is 30 feet.
• 1 extra feat at 1st level.
• 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
• Innate Spellcasting: All eldritch humans can cast arcane spells as a Sorcerer equal to one quarter of their hit dice (minimum Sor 1). These innate Sorcerer levels are separate from any Sorcerer levels taken as class levels.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
• Level Adjustment: +?

That's what I want, just a level adjustment. I think +1 or +2 is enough. After all, even by 20th level they'll only have 2nd level spells.

What do you all think?

I think you're making a lot of work for yourself for something that might come out really unbalanced. Honestly, I'd just give them sorcerer levels, so you can figure out ECLs/CRs w/o a headache.


If I were going to do it, I would make it as simple as possible:
Get rid of human bonus feat and bonus skill points.
Make favored class sorcerer.
+2 CHA, -2 to some physical ability.
every four (or maybe five) levels give them a "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" like from a spellcasting prestige class. That way they can multiclass out of sorcerer every so often, or take a one level dip into sorcerer early on.
LA +?

Are you the DM? Is this a race for NPCs only or PCs too?

 

[justinsluder]

I am the DM and if it was for NPC's only I'd just give them the spellcasting abilities with a CR increase of 1 for every three effective sorcerer levels.