Humor (sort of): Do you do these ILLEGAL things? An informal poll.
I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but I'd honestly prefer it if you refrained from comments regarding my sense of humor. Please.
mach1.9pants
Hero
On the funny side, my fave is:
You are allowed to shoot with a crossbow a Welshman in the Shrewsbury town limits if he is there after dark... beat that!
And I #1 under aged drunk, #2 speed my cars and bikes and fighter jets (flew them illegally low, too!), #3 not illegal, #4 never touched a puff, and but I am innocent of #5 but not #6.
I like PDFs too, does that make me bad?
You are allowed to shoot with a crossbow a Welshman in the Shrewsbury town limits if he is there after dark... beat that!
And I #1 under aged drunk, #2 speed my cars and bikes and fighter jets (flew them illegally low, too!), #3 not illegal, #4 never touched a puff, and but I am innocent of #5 but not #6.
I like PDFs too, does that make me bad?
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
What laws did I break?
1. Yes. Too many speed limits seem unnecessary, e.g. there is a wide road, not much population or traffic that could get in the way and stuff like that.
2. No. Don't drink. I think drinking itelf isn't even in forbidden here, but selling to underagers is.
3. No. As above.
4. No. Can't remember being careless when going over the street.
5. No. At least I can't think of a situation where this even could apply.
6. No.
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
1. Most areas set speed limits 10-15 mph under what they expect people to drive because they know people will speed. I stay under this higher limit unless safety requires a faster speed (i.e. when a semi is merging onto an expressway and you need to clear a path for it to enter traffic and slowing down would be unsafe).
2. I did. But this isn't universally illegal. When I did drink I made sure I did not have to drive anywhere.
3. Tried a couple of times, but I can't stand smoking.
4. This is not illegal everywhere. As long as you are not causing a hazard to yourself or motorists this is allowable in some areas. For my own safety I usually don't
5. Nope. Is this really a law anyway?
6. No. Any missing income on my part would be intentional.
I haven't broken any of the weird ones.
Now, using these as a justification for stealing PDFs? Except for #6 these are all laws for safety and health. Unless you are being willfully negligent or acting in a hazardous way, #1-5 don't really compare to theft. #6 does and IMO anyone cheating on their taxes is just as bad as stealing a PDF.
Even if someone can admit to past indiscretions it doesn't justify current actions of PDF thieves. In my youth I stole. It was wrong. My theft doesn't make anyone's current theft right by any means.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Actually #2 is not neccesarily illegal in the US. You may not sell alcohol to minors nor may restaraunts or bars serve it to minors nor may you provide alcohol to minors who are not your children, but in most states parents may allow their own children to drink alcohol under their supervision.
Growing up my parents often let me have a glass of wine with dinner, just as they had a glass of wine with dinner. Neither I nor they were breaking the law. Now the college parties I went to were a different story.
Growing up my parents often let me have a glass of wine with dinner, just as they had a glass of wine with dinner. Neither I nor they were breaking the law. Now the college parties I went to were a different story.
Aberzanzorax
Hero
Two responses here:
1. I'm not actually using these as a justification for stealing PDFs. I'm just pointing out that many people use "THE LAW" as the reason they either act a certain way or have a certain belief---it's wrong because IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.
The point of this thread was to show that the law can be a guide, but it can also be a foolish one. There is more to it than that, as you have pointed out. You state that there is a difference between health laws and property laws. Your actions differ according to those terms that you have decided upon. You are making a choice beyond just whether it is the law or not, and in some cases (speeding, etc) choosing to completely disregard the law in favor of your own judgement. You also seem to be okay with that. (I'm certainly not judging you for it).
My point, again, is that it's not the law that defines whether or not something is okay, it is our own judgement (and the norms and mores of society). The law has influence, to be sure, as it is a public statement of a norm, and it also usually carries with it an enforceable penalty. That further creates grey area as these penalties may or may not be enforced. If I impersonate Santa Claus, I'd be shocked if I go to jail, and I think there would be a public outcry. Is it a law? Yes. Is it enforced? No. So then, does it even matter that it is a law?
2. You seem to state that health laws are less important than property laws. I'd beg to differ. Even if I'm driving carefully, every mile per hour I go faster increases the probability that an accident will be fatal. Drinking underage can lead to alcohol poisoning and death. Using chemicals at the wrong dilution can lead to poisoning of local wells (especially if you have a septic tank). Steal someone's property? Nobody dies. I'm not saying that makes stealing right, by any means. However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "health laws" as insignificant or even as not measuring up to property laws.
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Starbuck_II
First Post
1. Nope. Except when walking, but that isn't a crime.
2. Nope, don't like liquer as I'm 1/8th Native American I don't want to be an alcoholic (too much risk).
3. Nah, never understood why I should put on my mouth pee (Urea is also in pee)
4. Nope. I even wait till the light turns "okay to walk" when there is no cars anywhere in sight for a couple minutes.
5. Nope.
6. Nope, need to have something like a job first.
Since I never lived in those three cities...and I have nothing to bribe...
I'm clean.
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
I was commenting more on the general state of the world today where people believe it is within their right to take information that doesn't belong to them. Most of these same people wouldn't shoplift the physical book from their FLGS, but they have convinced themselves that doing the exact same thing on the internet is somehow OK.
The difference is that #1-5 are subjective by jurisdiction. There are no speed limits in Montana. You will get a ticket if you drive recklessly. In parts of the world young people are allowed to drink and presumably smoke. Jaywalking is not illegal everywhere. And different states have different safety codes and I presume those could apply to the "proper" usage of chemicals. I don't think you can locate a single jurisdiction worldwide where theft is OK.
Yes. And society across time and across borders has considered theft to be wrong. It is only the new age of internet thieves that are trying to convince people that stealing virtual stuff is OK.
I did not say health and safety laws are less important, just different. If driving faster is automatically more dangerous then we should change all speed limits nationally to 25 mph, right? No. High speeds alone do not cause accidents. Not slowing down in adverse conditions or situations lead to the accident. Drinking irresponsibly at any age can lead to death by alcohol poisoning and an increase in drunk driving, so shouldn't we outlaw alcohol globally? When I drank underage I made sure not to drink too much and I *never* drove after drinking. These are laws that require good judgement and provide a guideline for proper action.
The laws against theft aren't a guideline, they are absolute. That is why health and safety laws can't be compared. Apples and Oranges, neither being more or less important than the other, just different.
Aberzanzorax
Hero
All very good points VB.
The only part I disagree with is the end. Laws about theft (the legal word "theft") do appear to be relatively absolute (in that it doesn't appear to be legal anywhere).
There are shades, though, like the other laws. E.G. Shoplifting is a lesser crime than grand theft auto.
But to address the "some places it is legal component"...some places it is legal to download files. It's not legal to share them, but it is entirely legal to download them. I'd say that this meets your criteria for the "not absolute" component.
As far as theft (and I don't want this thread to get taken over by the whole "is pirating theft" argument that has killed several other threads). Pirating is theft in the sense that it is taking something that isn't yours. It's theft in the way we commonly use theft. It is not theft in the very specific way that "theft" is defined legally. (Like the common use of the word insane is very different than the legal use of that word).
I'm, again, not saying that Pirating is O.K. However, I don't think that it meets your strict criteria of being a black and white law (like breaking into someone's house and taking stuff does).
The only part I disagree with is the end. Laws about theft (the legal word "theft") do appear to be relatively absolute (in that it doesn't appear to be legal anywhere).
There are shades, though, like the other laws. E.G. Shoplifting is a lesser crime than grand theft auto.
But to address the "some places it is legal component"...some places it is legal to download files. It's not legal to share them, but it is entirely legal to download them. I'd say that this meets your criteria for the "not absolute" component.
As far as theft (and I don't want this thread to get taken over by the whole "is pirating theft" argument that has killed several other threads). Pirating is theft in the sense that it is taking something that isn't yours. It's theft in the way we commonly use theft. It is not theft in the very specific way that "theft" is defined legally. (Like the common use of the word insane is very different than the legal use of that word).
I'm, again, not saying that Pirating is O.K. However, I don't think that it meets your strict criteria of being a black and white law (like breaking into someone's house and taking stuff does).
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