Hypothetical questions for anyone who likes Batman

[stevelabny]

Here's a few hypothetical situations. Assume you just heard that these are true from a reliable news source.

Please say whether or not you are CURRENTLY a comic book reader. And whether or not that includes one of the Batman books.

1. Batman kills the Joker. Fed up with the thousands of deaths, and the revolving door on Arkham, Batman finally crosses the line he swore he never would. Where does he go from here? And how does the rest of the DC Universe deal with him now?

2. Bruce Wayne dies. On-panel. And DC insists they are going to stick with it. It is the end of a major crossover, and has major repercussions in the DCU. Dick Grayson takes up the mantle and becomes the new Batman. Batman's murderer will have to be dealt with by Dick or Tim or the hero community.

3. Bruce chooses to retire. He still passes the mantle on to Dick, but in this situation Bruce is alive and always in the background of every Batman story.

Would you believe that any of these stories would stick and not be changed back within a year? Is there anything DC could do to make you believe it?

Would any of these stories pique your interest enough to read them? More importantly, would any of these stories make you want to read what happens next?

 

[RangerWickett]

Batman dying/leaving would never happen. It'd be a stupid business decision. It could only work in an elseworld sort of affair.

Face it, Batman is a legend. You can only kill a legend until the next storyteller comes along to retell his tale.

As for Batman killing the Joker, . . . um, he'd, like, testify in court via closed circuit TV, and get off on probation. Seriously, if they haven't arrested and convicted the man as a public nuisance so far, him actually killing a mass murderer isn't going to change anything.

And anyway, the Joker's a legend too.

 

[Klaus]

Reading DC comics since 1985. Skim through current Bat-titles, but following Teen Titans, Outsiders and Birds of Prey.

1 - Two possible scenarios come to mind.

Scenario A: Batman kills the Joker and rationalizes it as being necessary. From then on, he is tempted to take that road again every time one of his more psychotic rogues go at it again (Zsaz, Killer Croc, etc). The superhero community would probably gravitate to either supporting the Bat (Wonder Woman, Hawkman and Huntress would definitely be on his side) or reject him (Superman would be very disappointed in Batman). In a way, it seems this is happening right now with Wonder Woman.

Scenario B: Batman's head snaps, and he develops a split-personality that DOES kill villains, while the core Batman personality continues with the vow of non-killing. This happened to Superman when he killed the alternate-Earth kryptonians Zod, Quex-Ul and Zaora (he became the Gangbuster). It took Kal-El an exile in space to sort things out.

Either way, the public at large would probably never know this, as the Joker's body would probably never show up.

BTW, this DID happen in the Elseworlds title JLA: The Nail, where Batman killed Joker after the clown used telekinetic gauntlets (from Apokolips) to teach Batman about human anatomy using Robin and Batgirl as his subjects.

2 - Only a select few would know the truth. For all intents and purposes, Batman is alive. If Bruce dies without crossing the line (question 1), then Dick and Tim would stick to Batman's credo of no killing.

3 - It's Batman Beyond all over again. IMHO, that cartoon showed that Bruce Wayne *can* be replaced, if the legend and the character are treated with dignity.

All this sounds remarkably similar with what I heard about the One Year Later DC Universe...

 

[Umbran]

Please say whether or not you are CURRENTLY a comic book reader. And whether or not that includes one of the Batman books.

I read comics occasionally. I don't regularly read any particular titles right now.

Would you believe that any of these stories would stick and not be changed back within a year? Is there anything DC could do to make you believe it?

Not likely. DC is a company. Eventually, they'd see more money in brinigng back Bats than in leaving him dead, and they'd find a story-writer with a keen idea. DC has never behaved in such a way as to support the idea that they'd stick by their guns.

Would any of these stories pique your interest enough to read them? More importantly, would any of these stories make you want to read what happens next?

Eh. Depends upon the author and the artist. I don't care how intriguing the concept is if the story is told badly and is ugly to look at.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Bruce dying or retiring and the bat-o-rama being taking up by someone else is soooo Zorro/Phatom. Comic book heros of that level should not die, period.

I could see Batman killing the Joker, this has a lot of possiblities, batman questioning himself, holding back for fear of doing it again, the fear that he is going over to the dark side, hell, him starting to like the dark side. You have a long story life that could take you places, you have crossovers of him breaking up with his friends or his friends helping him. Hell, as a final, you bring back the Joker...it was one big joke to screw with the bat. You could squeeze a couple of years out of this.

 

[Blue_Kryptonite]

Comics reader since 1970. My second degree is actually a study of comics.
I do not currently read comics regularly, as they have gotten, IMO of course, depressingly grim, unheroic, and genreally angsty, pointless, and stupid.

1. Batman kills the Joker. Fed up with the thousands of deaths, and the revolving door on Arkham, Batman finally crosses the line he swore he never would. Where does he go from here? And how does the rest of the DC Universe deal with him now?

Retconned within one year after a major storyline whereing he exiles himself from Gotham that is not recognized in other titles, particularly JLA.

2. Bruce Wayne dies. On-panel. And DC insists they are going to stick with it. It is the end of a major crossover, and has major repercussions in the DCU. Dick Grayson takes up the mantle and becomes the new Batman. Batman's murderer will have to be dealt with by Dick or Tim or the hero community.

Sure they will. Like Oliver Queen, Barry Allen, and Superman.

3. Bruce chooses to retire. He still passes the mantle on to Dick, but in this situation Bruce is alive and always in the background of every Batman story.

This is one of the current rumors. This and the one abobe would require a new Legends of the Batman title starring bruce to ensure Trademark. This is why Barry Allen and the like show up every few months.

Would you believe that any of these stories would stick and not be changed back within a year? Is there anything DC could do to make you believe it?

No. Make me believe it? Have one man take DC private. Also, he has to be immortal. Otherwise... I've seen a LOT of editors and writers come and go in the last 35 years.

Would any of these stories pique your interest enough to read them? More importantly, would any of these stories make you want to read what happens next?

No, they stopped making those books in the early 80s. I watch JLU now to get real comics.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

DC and Marvel will never have the guts to not have Batman be Bruce Wayne, Superman not be Clark Kent or Spider-Man not be Peter Parker. All of these have been considered at one time or another (the original fight with the Hobgoblin where it climaxes in an explosion under the river was supposed to kill off Spider-Man, too, for instance), but they wouldn't do it. (In fact, Marvel has gone so far as to restore most of Spider-Man's status quo over the last few years, going so far as to raise Aunt May from the dead.)

Batman Beyond doesn't prove much, since Bruce Wayne was in it, and it was explicitly supposed to be about the successor and was released at a time when the "real" Batman was also available on TV.

Major iconic characters like this won't ever have the dramatic permenant change so many readers demand. (I've been reading since 1973 or thereabouts and have made a little money around the periphery of the industry.) I would love it if my Superman -- my very first comic was an Action Comics followed closely by an issue of Amazing Spider-Man where Spidey was fighting Green Goblin II -- was allowed to age and the current Superman was his son. But it ain't happening, partially because "person has a REALLY bad day and becomes a vigilante superhero" is a lot more accessible than "person is a third generation superhero" to an off-the-street audience.

When comics in the 1990s got more into continuity, it drove casual readers away. Readers need to be able to pick up one comic a year and see the character they enjoy from other media (where all the real money is nowadays) instead of being hopelessly baffled, like they were when the first X-Men movie came out.

Having said that, the characters do evolve over time, especially via retcons. Superman's origin is no longer Action Comics #1, or even the Man of Steel miniseries, it's now the Birthright miniseries, which makes Clark more of a child of the modern day.

And you left out what I think is the most plausible scenario for how Batman's stories would end: Giving into despair after being obsessed with his parents' death for decades and his hopeless attempt to single-handedly clean up Gotham, he kills himself with Joe Chill's gun. I was impressed that Batman Begins addressed the dead-end nature of the obsession, albeit with a light touch.

 

[WayneLigon]

Please say whether or not you are CURRENTLY a comic book reader. And whether or not that includes one of the Batman books.

I currently read a lot of comics though I seldom pick up a Batman title unless Robin or Nightwing feature prominately in the issue or something else catches my interest.

1. Batman kills the Joker. Fed up with the thousands of deaths, and the revolving door on Arkham, Batman finally crosses the line he swore he never would. Where does he go from here? And how does the rest of the DC Universe deal with him now?

It could go one of several ways. (1) He chalks it up to anger or loss of control and redoubles his efforts to never cross that line again (2) He goes over that line more and more until Robin or Nightwing drag him. (3) He retires but it doesn't 'take', and he becomes the new Oracle. The rest of the DC universe would be content to let him go into retirement or go underground. I don't think they'd force an arrest on him because of all he's done in the past and because it would blow his secret ID. Blowing Batman's secret ID automatically blows at least Tim and Dick's ID, and nobody wants that, and probably more as well.

All of that said, the Joker would be back. He 'died' in his very first appearance, and he got better. There is no logic behind permanently getting rid of such a major character.

2. Bruce Wayne dies. On-panel. And DC insists they are going to stick with it. It is the end of a major crossover, and has major repercussions in the DCU. Dick Grayson takes up the mantle and becomes the new Batman. Batman's murderer will have to be dealt with by Dick or Tim or the hero community.

Dick might be a good Batman but he doesn't have the intensity or single-minded drive that has made Bruce so effective. He has a life outside the costume. So, we have a less-effective Batman in some respects, or someone else we don't know takes up that mantle (an even worse choice in my mind) or we wait for Tim to grow up.

3. Bruce chooses to retire. He still passes the mantle on to Dick, but in this situation Bruce is alive and always in the background of every Batman story.

I can't see him ever retiring. He's too control-oriented. He might be forced into retirement by massive physical injury but he'd find some way around it. Dick would also resent The Bat always looking over his shoulder; so would anyone else.

Now, all of these assume that we have a writer/editor/senior staff that gives a damn about actual continuity and the integrity of a character. As we've seen so often, that ain't always so. I assume any change could happen at any time, regardless of how logical or stupid it might be.

Would you believe that any of these stories would stick and not be changed back within a year? Is there anything DC could do to make you believe it?

I dunno. I've purposefully stayed away from all fan speculation about Infinite Crisis, 52, and One Year Later (or whatever it's called where the DCU advances one DCU year at the beginning of this year, I think). In practical terms, I don't think it's possible as a company for them to do that with any of the 'Holy Trinity', or any other first-stringer on a permanent basis. They can get away with it for people like Flash or Green Lantern since they're second stringers to the world at large. I'm honestly surprised that Barry has stayed dead as long as he has despite some recent cheating to let him appear a couple times over the years. I'm surprised Hal was gone as long as he was. But everything eventually changes, or changes back. I just assume now that if something happens I don't like, eventually it'll be changed.

 

[Safana Cain]

I am inconsistently a comic book reader. The Dark Knight Returns was probably my first, back in the late 80's.

Speaking of which, Batman did [SPOILERS] kill the Joker in the Dark Knight Returns. But by then the new Police Commissioner had already been hunting him.

If Bruce Wayne did die, they'd have to find an awfully compelling replacement. One of the few failures of Batman Beyond was that Terry McGinis was not a compelling replacement for Bruce Wayne. And neither is Dick Grayson, for that matter - he's just too flippant to be the Batman. They would have to create a new character with just as compelling a motive for being Batman, as well as being distinct from Bruce Wayne.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Er, the Joker killed himself in DKR.