I begin to worry...

[Hussar]

From what I've read, it sounds like that is the way they are going. I'm still unhappy with the change to the hold and sleep, and darkness (or should i call them shadow now) spells. I thought Andy Collin's changes were pathetic and his reason was even more pathetic. Collin's changes to those spells made them a rarity (basically never) in my campaign, especially the darkness and sleep spells. The hold spells dropped in use as well.

You don't think that's because the spells were massively overpowered before so that choosing to cast anything else in combat was pretty much sub-par? Why bother with any other spell when you can sleep anything under 4 hit dice and they die?

 

[Victim]

You don't think that's because the spells were massively overpowered before so that choosing to cast anything else in combat was pretty much sub-par? Why bother with any other spell when you can sleep anything under 4 hit dice and they die?

Because you can color spray them and they still die? Plus color spray isn't as useless at higher levels.

 

[LostSoul]

If I didn't want some rules, I wouldn't even buy the books. I'd engage in joint story telling with friends. I do want rules that are more guidelines. I want rules that are fluid so they can be adapted to a variety of situations. I also want lots of options to build a character. I liked that about third edition. Rigid rulesets are for video games that have a coded game engine that is the same for every player, fluid rule sets are better for pen and paper where the imagination is your game engine and can differ from person to person.

You should try something like Spirit of the Century.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Please assuage my doubts.

Ok it's time for bed when that looks like "Please sausage my donuts." 'Night.

 

[Lanefan]

Ok it's time for bed when that looks like "Please sausage my donuts." 'Night.

Or time for lunch...your subconscious is telling you you're hungry.

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

Because you can color spray them and they still die? Plus color spray isn't as useless at higher levels.

Color spray only looks good now because Sleep got nerfed so hard. Imagine if Color Spray was a spread, a range and no saving throw. That's what sleep used to be. Possibly 4-16 targets dead in a first level spell.

Color spray not looking so pretty anymore is it?

 

[Psion]

And a fighter isnt going to mop up like the other "real" classes.

My experience suggests otherwise.

Maybe be better in combat than every single other class? Hands down, the god of all combat enouncters, both offense and defensively, since he . He's not, since he's stuck playing second fiddle to casters in combat, and an utter joke outside of combat.

Things like the CR/XP chart show that combat is the central focus of the game. You make a fighter too clearly better than the other classes in combat, then everyone else is playing second fiddle to the fighter in the aspect of the game that matters most by the way things are currently arranged.

 

[Twowolves]

Hmm, so we have sunder, aka destroy treasure. Bull rush, a fairly weak tactical maneuver thats pretty useless against non humanoids, disarm, etc. Power attack is of course assumed.

Not every opponent has magic weapons and armor, and even if they did, sundering a hill giant's +1 huge club is a pittance to pay to keep him from making your party into paste. Dismissing Sunder this way is a non-starter arguement. Bull Rush is not weak unless you are always fighting on a wide open field or a plain featureless dungeon floor. Cliffs, firepits, lava, pits, etc etc are all terrain features that make Bull Rush an excellent option.

I see you dismiss Sunder because it destroys treasure, but then dismiss Disarm because it's useless against natural weapons. How about using an ounce of logic and Disarm the guy with the magic sword and Sunder something else? I also see you ignore Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Overrun, Charge, etc etc.

He's entirely limited by spell slots, namely the cleric's. He rests when the cleric is out of heals.

Only if he's chosen not to fight smart AND not to stock up on healing items. Combat Expertise, Defensive Fighting, attacking from ambush, using the above mentioned combat maneuvers all will and so on exist to help cut his reliance on spell slots. A fighter will never run out of spell slots or charges on his melee attack. Period. His first Power Attacking Charge will do just as much damage as his 500th, even if he's down to 1 hp.

 

[Testament]

Bull Rush is not weak unless you are always fighting on a wide open field or a plain featureless dungeon floor. Cliffs, firepits, lava, pits, etc etc are all terrain features that make Bull Rush an excellent option.

Of course not. Its useless because it requires you to win by a considerable margin to get any real pushback, opens you up to swathes of attacks of opportunity, chews up numerous feat slots and is incredibly difficult to win against high level monsters owing to size, strenght and limb number bonuses.

 

[Victim]

Color spray only looks good now because Sleep got nerfed so hard. Imagine if Color Spray was a spread, a range and no saving throw. That's what sleep used to be. Possibly 4-16 targets dead in a first level spell.

Color spray not looking so pretty anymore is it?

In 1e, yeah. But lots of stuff had no saves or at least rather ineffective saves then too. Like Slow. Or Chromatic Orb.

Which would your party rather face - a 17th level fighter or a 17th level wizard?

A 17th level fighter. Especially if he's limited to NPC wealth.

On the other hand, if you're looking at a group context, the level 17 fighter type might be the more significant threat compared to the wizard. Stopping the threat posed by a physical attacker supported by his allies can be far more difficult than the reverse