I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Gaerek]

Healing surges are the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle of character health once a character takes damage. The narrative can only be presented in hindsight once the outcome has been determined.

The PC doesn't blow healing surge? His wounds are life-threatening and he is seriously courting death every round. That last blow drew a mortal wound...

The PC blows a surge? 'Tis only a flesh wound! There was never any REAL damage! The last blow barely scraped the hero...

A game with them reminds me of the movie the Last Action Hero -- if the hero is alive, it's only a flesh wound.

HP has always been an abstract concept. I'm certain you realize this. As such, HS's fall under this as well. Keep in mind, in almost every circumstance, players must do something (drink a potion, get a heal from a cleric, use a power, use an item, etc) to use a healing surge. The one exception, of course is the Second Wind. With the exception of the second wind, the healing surge provides the narrative as it happens, not in hindsight. And my players try to use Second Wind as little as possible because it uses a Standard in most cases. YMMV. HS are used as a mechanic to determine essentially how long a player can last in a day. Most uses of healing surges in combat are NOT second winds. Previously, this had been determined by how many spell slots a cleric had, or how many charges the Wand of Cure Light had left. This being the case, I'll take the new system over the old ANY day of the week, even if I have to suspend a little more disbelief.

Healing surges display glaring inconsistency at zero hit points. When your hit points go below zero, which happens a lot in 4E, you're unconscious and bleeding out. You'll die if someone doesn't rush in to stabilize you, the way Gaerek is talking about in his real-world example above. Okay. That's all well and good. But once you're stabilized and combat ends, you spend a few healing surges and you're back on your feet like nothing happened. WTF? You were mortally wounded five minutes ago. This is what makes healing surges feel "video-gamey" to people.

But it somehow makes sense that (in ALL editions of the game) that because I'm 10th level and you're first level, I can take several direct hits in battle, but you can only take one? That doesn't seem video gamey? (Let's excuse the fact that practically every video game we play today has it's roots in D&D). Hmm.

Before you jump in with the HP are an abstract, I know, I agree. The entire system is an abstract. It was designed to reduce the reliance of a dedicated healing cleric, and Wands of Cure Light. Like I said above, I'll take the new system over clerics and wands any day of the week.

And, I used my example, not because I believe that D&D is somehow realistic, but because one of the big arguments I've come across (not from you, of course) is that HS are not realistic. But realism is a terrible argument with D&D, since it's not designed to be realistic. HP are not realistic. Gaining levels and somehow, immediately knowing new things is not realistic. HS are not realistic. AC is not realistic. Magic Missle is not realistic. All realism arguments in D&D are immediately thrown out, in my book.

(Also, the name is stupid. They're obviously not healing you, so why are they called "healing surges?")

I agree, the name is dumb. I wish they were called something else. I honestly believe most of the dislike of the system is a result of the name not being representative of what they really are.

As a matter of fact, I bet if they were called Endurance Points, or something like that (that had nothing at all to do with healing) there would be FAR fewer people who had a problem with the mechanic.

 

[amerigoV]

I've only played a bit of 4e. I like the Surges themselves and they are not all that far off "reality" so to speak if one uses sports as an analogy (which of course, everyone will poke holes into).

Healing surge in combat - like a turning point in a ballgame - a big play that energizes you to carry one (that's why I could dig the Warlord - its like Ray Lewis yelling at you - you will player harder).

After combat - even if you are dead beat, a 5-10 minute breather seems to bring you back.

Full renew after a long rest - I remember back to my HS football days - a day would end where I swear I would not get up the next day - yet I did and went at it hard again. Sure, there were aches and pains, but nothing that was going to hindrance performance.

I do not worry about stuff around 0hp - the system has always been flaky there regardless of edition.

The part that I did not fully get is other people 'activating' your own surge. I am sure the math all worked out as the Surge is really the resource, not the HP. But I stopped playing before I fully bought into that part of the mechanic (I am sure if I was still playing 4e that it would just be part of the system and I would not even think about it).

 

[Dausuul]

But it somehow makes sense that (in ALL editions of the game) that because I'm 10th level and you're first level, I can take several direct hits in battle, but you can only take one?

Abstraction is not the issue here. From moment to moment, I can tell a coherent story about what's happening in combat with the 10th-level fighter. Each hit is a bruise or a minor injury, and then when the final blow takes the fighter to zero, it's a deadly and life-threatening wound.

I can't do that with HSes. When the fighter drops to zero in 4E, she goes into a Schrodinger's Box where the severity of the wound is undetermined till she either dies or spends a healing surge. What's going on with her while she's in the box? I don't know. Nobody does. Nobody can.

Now, are there places where traditional hit points don't tell a consistent story? Sure there are. Falling damage is the most common example, where people calmly step off fifty-foot cliffs because they know they have enough hit points to get up and walk away. And you know, those rough spots are exactly the ones people have been grumbling and griping about for decades. House rules for falling damage sprout like weeds.

And, I used my example, not because I believe that D&D is somehow realistic, but because one of the big arguments I've come across (not from you, of course) is that HS are not realistic.

I think most people who object to healing surges have the same problem I described, but many haven't consciously worked out what it is that rubs them the wrong way. (It took me several false starts before I figured out what I wanted to post to this thread.) They just know healing surges don't sit right somehow, and that not-sitting-right has to do with the surges not matching what they imagine going on in the game world. So they call healing surges "unrealistic."

 

[was]

It's not that I dislike them, but they do tend to make things seem a bit more fantastic then realistic. Perhaps it's just the sheer number of healing surges per day.

 

[TheUltramark]

I think healing surges are fantastic. and as mentioned before in paraphrase, they are the "real hit points". I don't even mind the name, what else would you call them? "hit-point-getter-backers" ???

 

[MortonStromgal]

it never seemed to make sense that an Ancient Red Dragon had less HP than a 10th level fighter. This problem wasn't really solved with 2E or even 3E.

This didn't really happen in 2e... you rolled HP so on average a fighter is gaining 5 or 6 HP per level + CON (1 HP fighters at first level were uncommon but fun!). Then at 9th level you were only gaining 1HP + CON mod. And if you were not a "fighter" type after 9th level you were gaining 1HP per level.

If you dislike healing surges, why? And what would your solution be?

I dislike them because there is no downtime to heal your either ok or dead, at leased with older D&D it could take a few days to get back up to normal after a big fight. Its a Book vs Movie thing, in LOTR books travel was very slow, in the films they glossed over it to get to the "good stuff". The only good thing is removal of the healbot. But you could have done this by increasing natural healing without having the ridiculous level of healing surges. Let me heal 1/4 of my HP per day of natural rest rather than my level.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I think healing surges are fantastic. and as mentioned before in paraphrase, they are the "real hit points". I don't even mind the name, what else would you call them? "hit-point-getter-backers" ???

If I had to rename them, I'd call them "Adrenaline Surges" instead. It's just a rush of adrenaline that allows the character to continue on.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If you dislike healing surges, why? And what would your solution be?

Because it highlights the abstract nature of HP (something stated frequently in the rule books but usually not the case in practice in my experience) and it comes off as quasi-magical. Also to me, it just looks like a mechanic designed around game play rather than flavor. So it has a gamey feel that I am just not into.

 

[Nagol]

I think healing surges are fantastic. and as mentioned before in paraphrase, they are the "real hit points". I don't even mind the name, what else would you call them? "hit-point-getter-backers" ???

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can die whilst still having a pool of healing surges, correct?

They aren't the real hit points; they are large bags of hit points that can be summoned to convert daamge that could kill you into near-misses in a way that is impossible for the characters to notice.

"Bob was down and potentially bleeding to death 2 seconds ago, but he's much better now. Cleric, why did you waste time on him -- it was only a flesh wound!"

"Glad we got that 5 minute breather! I almost lost my lung in the last fight, but now I'm ready to go -- only my hair is mussed!"

 

[Dausuul]

I'd call them "heroic surges," which I think better gets at what they're supposed to be. That said, the name isn't the big problem here.

As to what I would do to solve the issue: Instead of the surge mechanic, I would have a separate mechanic for tracking "real injuries" which require a long time, or magic, to heal. The simplest way to do this is with a Star Wars-style wound/vitality system, without the ability for crits to bypass vitality (which more or less defeats the point of having the split). I can think of some other possible approaches, though.