I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Nagol]

I don't agree with that at all.

If we can accept that HP damage is a combination of wounds and luck/karma/fate, why can't restoration of HP, through any means physical, magical, whatever, also be a combination of wounds and luck/karma/fate?

You can, but you end with the situation of a character bleeding out on the floor 6 seconds from death being recovered and refreshed by a good talking to from his company sergeant.

This is one of the reasons for split pools originally -- to give a pool that is hard to heal and a pool that refreshes more quickly. At that point, the sergeant can restore confidence, resolve, some karma/luck/divine favour, but only bandage the physical injury gained.

 

[BryonD]

The only CLW wands I've seen in play of 30+ years were those found in troves. Even when PCs went into "M-Mart", they unfailingly purchased healing potions instead of wands.

Same here.

I've seen healing wands in play. But the "insta-heal" in a box problem has never once surfaced because they are treated as the limited resource that they are. They are not treated as the perpetual resource that surges are and wands are so often falsely equated to.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As I've mentioned above... it is absurd if this damage requires magical healing to recover from it. Because that implies it's a real physical injury. Which then implies that since a heroic character can take three to fifteen of these damaging attacks during a combat before dropping below 0 HPs and "falling unconscious"... they are sustaining three to fifteen REAL PHYSICAL INJURIES THAT REQUIRE MAGICAL HEALING and somehow are still fighting.

It isn't that the injuries require magical healing, it is that they require magical healing to be returned to full fighting trim right now as opposed to after weeks or months of natural healing and mundane medical attention.

So tell me what those are? Name me fifteen injuries a hand-to-hand combatant could sustain that would require magical healing (or if we want to make it even more understandable... 'surgery') but yet still allow him to keep fighting even after sustaining each and every one.

Well, considering that there is a photo in the Gracie dojo of one family member having a fight stopped by the Ref after said Gracie sustained a broken arm and was in a grapple...and yet was still willing to continue fighting...

Or that another martial artist (who works street security in Amsterdam) pointed out that one method (not the preferred method, to be sure) of disarming a knife is to get stabbed through the hand and grasp the attackers fist, using the bones of your hand as leverage when you twist...

I see matches all the time where boxers keep fighting wit broken noses (which can result in fatal injuries), or striking with broken bones in their hands.

I think someone like that could rattle off a LOT of serious injuries a trained fighter could fight through that would have most of us crying like leetel gorils.

Me? I'm no fighter. But even I know that you can fight through numerous broken bones, deep contusions, and even ruptured organs...if that is what you train to do.

 

[GSHamster]

For the anti-healing surge crowd, would you accept healing surges with a Wound/Vitality system, if the healing surge could only heal Vitality?

A Wound / Vitality system specifically differentiates between serious physical wounds, and the surface cuts, exhaustion, luck etc. of Vitality. To follow Hussar's phrasing, the type of wound that was suffered is determined at the time the attack resolves, not retroactively in the future.

If healing surges can only heal Vitality, would that restore the viable suspension of disbelief?

 

[BryonD]

You can, but you end with the situation of a character bleeding out on the floor 6 seconds from death being recovered and refreshed by a good talking to from his company sergeant.

Yes, what you described can happen IF you use surges.

I dislike surges and that never happens in my game.

 

[Nagol]

Yes, what you described can happen IF you use surges.

I dislike surges and that never happens in my game.

Well surges or forms of non-magical healing that aren't capped anyway -- like the Martial Leader class.

 

[BryonD]

For the anti-healing surge crowd, would you accept healing surges with a Wound/Vitality system, if the healing surge could only heal Vitality?

A Wound / Vitality system specifically differentiates between serious physical wounds, and the surface cuts, exhaustion, luck etc. of Vitality. To follow Hussar's phrasing, the type of wound that was suffered is determined at the time the attack resolves, not retroactively in the future.

This would be a huge improvement over the 4E approach.

Though, honestly, I find HP and no surges the best option of the three.

Surges with W/V is perfectly acceptable however.

If healing surges can only heal Vitality, would that restore the viable suspension of disbelief?

Just speaking for myself, it isn't about "suspension of disbelief". I have no problem with that. It is about quality of the narrative flow and the mechanics and a strong, consistent model.

 

[BryonD]

Well surges or forms of non-magical healing that aren't capped anyway -- like the Martial Leader class.

Can you give me a 3E example?

 

[Dausuul]

For the anti-healing surge crowd, would you accept healing surges with a Wound/Vitality system, if the healing surge could only heal Vitality?

Can't speak for anyone else, but wound/vit is my preferred solution to the whole business. Healing surges to vitality? As long as the implementation was clean and tight and didn't slow down play, I'd be fine with it.

The only caveat I would add is this: For any given source of damage, it should either bypass vitality all the time, or none of the time. There should never be a "sometimes" option (e.g., critical hits go straight to wounds but normal hits go to vitality).

The reason is that a damage source which is scaled to vitality-size hit point pools will usually be an insta-kill if applied directly to wounds. That defeats the point of having ablative hit points in the first place. Damage that goes straight to wounds should be scaled to a wound-size hit point pool.

 

[Nagol]

For the anti-healing surge crowd, would you accept healing surges with a Wound/Vitality system, if the healing surge could only heal Vitality?

A Wound / Vitality system specifically differentiates between serious physical wounds, and the surface cuts, exhaustion, luck etc. of Vitality. To follow Hussar's phrasing, the type of wound that was suffered is determined at the time the attack resolves, not retroactively in the future.

If healing surges can only heal Vitality, would that restore the viable suspension of disbelief?

For me, pretty much. Most such systems I'm aware of have a (reasonably) fast recharge on the Vitality/Stun/Fatigue side anyway -- anywhere from less than a minute (Hero) to a hot meal and good bed (C&S IIRC).

It restores the ability to narrate in linear time and for the group to have a common vision of the events and plausible outcomes from moment to moment..