I have Condition Track issues. Should I houserule?

[DerekSTheRed]

One of the characters in my home game is using the Dastardly Strike (Scoundrel talent) + Devastating Attack (Soldier talent) combo and it's working really well, possibly too well. In fact, most of my PCs are taking one level of soldier just to take the Devastating Attack talent which is quickly turning every enemy into 5 hit creatures. This greatly limits the effectiveness of my bad guys to get in a memorable attack since when they do attack it's usually at a -2 or -5 to hit or are forced to withdraw and use the recover action hoping they don't get hit more before the next turn.

I'm considering using one or both of 2 possible house rules. Any feedback welcome.

1. Add the Weapon Specialization Talent and possibly the Penetrating Attack Talent as Pre-Req's to the Devastating Attack talent. This will force the PCs to take at least a few more levels of Soldier. Higher level baddies will tend to have higher Damage Thresholds which will mitigate the effectiveness and prevent cherry picking. I prefer to not ban it entirely, just prevent it from being a must have for every character.

2. No attack can move the character down the condition track more than one step, unless the attack specifically states otherwise. In other words, no stacking Dastardly Strike and Devastating Attack in the same attack. Stun weapons will still move the character down 2 steps since it specifies it in stun damage.

Should I do 1, 2, or both? Or am I going overboard? I personally like the idea of the condition track, I just don't want it to overshadow hit points.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Wait, your players are actually getting to use Dastardly Strike? Wow, I've only seen that be used twice in over forty sessions.

The Condition Track is a great idea but it is terribly open to abuse. Things like putting down a Rancor with two attacks in the surprise round (Force Stun, then a stunning shot by a "bring 'em in alive" Gunslinger/Bounty Hunter). The decreasing damage threshold, as one moves down the track, just makes it nastier.
We found a simple "No Condition Track Abuse" clause was all it took. That conceit has kept the players policing themselves.

Good luck.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Yeah, Devastating Attack is one of those "really really good" talents. Dastardly Strike comes close, but requires some effort to set it up.

Things get nasty when you string together Dastardly Strike, Devastating Attack, and Stunning Strike on a martial arts type character with stun gauntlets, and can be put together as early as 6th level (Stunning Strike has Melee Smash as a pre-req) assuming a Scoundrel 1/Soldier 5 build.

I would say adding Weapon Spec as a pre-req should be enough to discourage cherry-picking, which is what it sounds like your PCs are doing.

Another thing to consider is giving your mainline NPCs boosts to their damage threshold, either via the feat Improved Damage Threshold or by wearing armor with a Fortitude Defense bonus.

ValhallaGM,
Depends on the player. I've seen one player make frequent and excellent use of Dastardly Strike by way of sniping and feints. She doesn't make that many attack rolls per combat, but when she does, the baddie feels it.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

A combination of training in the initiative skill and shadow armor help set up Dastardly Strike. However, the -20 to hide means it usually only happens once a combat (for now). Anyone think there would be a downside to limiting the condition track like I suggested in option 2? I'm currently leaning towards doing both.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

As for the "only one condition track affector at a time," if having PCs able to drive your baddies down the Condition Track that fast is a problem for your games, then do so.

I might also suggest talking with the players and letting them know that by their engaging in such antics, it's causing you frustration.

I haven't had an issue with the condition track affecting talents, but then again most of the PCs don't go out of their way to build "one-shot take-out" builds either. The most they go with is one of those talents, with the gunbunny in our latest group having both Dastardly Strike and Debilitating Shot, and for her it's a rare occasion that she gets to apply both, and given the damage output she has with her sniper rifle (has Deadeye, Careful Shot, a pulse charger and double trigger, plus it's been modded for extra damage), it's not often that a baddie gets taken down from condition track penalties instead of outright damage (I think she's planning on taking Triple Crit for her rifle once she hits 12th level as she needed her 9th level feat for something else), with only major villains having to worry about it.

Oh, another couple suggestions to help prevent major villains from being shoved down the condition track in a hurry. If they are Force-sensitivie, either Equiplibrium (swift + Force point to remove all condition track effects, including persistent ones) or the feat that lets you move back up tne condition track with only two swift actions (blanking on the name).

Might I also suggest giving a big bad some meatshields. If your players are cherry picking Soldier to get Devastating Attack, then have some NPC mooks that dipped into Soldier to get Harm's Way. Yeah, the NPC may very well drop from the attack (especially if at low levels and they've mostly got Non-Heroic levels), but it's an attack that didn't ping the big bad.

Since I don't know how you set up your encounters, I don't know if this is an issue, but try to avoid having solitary NPCs, as it lets the PCs mass their considerable firepower against them. That sort of thing may have worked for 3.X but even Darth Vader would get quickly overwhelmed if going solo against a group of 10th level PCs. Better to have a main villain that's a couple levels higher and give him a bunch of mooks to take some of the heat of the head guy. Squads (from CWCG) work good to this effect as it lets you make use of lower-level mooks in greater numbers without having to track quite as many NPCs in combat.

A final suggestion is sauce for the goose. If the players are seriously abusing that combination, have them go up against enemies that are built around a similar trick. Heck, that melee knock-out combo I posted above, combined with Powerful Charge, Mighty Swing, and Martial Arts II gives you an NPC that can barrel in put a sudden hurting on all but the most resilient of PCs. If they cry foul after that first encounter, politely advise them that you are just using the same rules they are using with their Dastardly Strike + Devastating Strike combinations. A lot of sensible players tend to back down on rules abuse when they wind up on the receiving end of it and if it's discussed without prejudice after the fact.

 

[ArghMark]

I'd have to agree with Donovan Morningfire. Most soldier classes that I have in my game take improved damage threshold at least once, and maybe more if they are higher level. The PC soldier was perfectly happy being able to absorb blows the Jedi would crumble under.

My game only had one who used this feat, and he was a jedi/soldier focused on damage and damage threshhold hits as much as he could be. I didn't find it unbalanced the game, because everyone had their part, but on the other hand everyone just played single class characters apart from the one guy.

I would possibly limit class choices; people dipping into other classes reminds me of that part in OotS where Elan wants to become a wizard, so its retroactively assumed Varsuvius was training him, despite the elfs protests to the contrary.

I guess the best thing would be to ask your players to play nice; were things going so badly they need that devastating talent so much they would forego other, more archetypal things?

 

[Ares]

I have to concur with earlier statements about damage threshold specialists. A player can design a character that is great at targeting damage thresholds (aside from the dastardly strike combo, a Consular using force lightning also comes to mind) but then again that's all they can do. The game is great for getting players to either be generalists or hardcore specialists capable of doing one thing really well.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

I have to concur with earlier statements about damage threshold specialists. A player can design a character that is great at targeting damage thresholds (aside from the dastardly strike combo, a Consular using force lightning also comes to mind) but then again that's all they can do. The game is great for getting players to either be generalists or hardcore specialists capable of doing one thing really well.

Actually, you bring up another incredibly powerful combo, the Jedi with Master Negotiator and is trained in Persuasion. Since most NPCs tend to have lower Will Defenses than they have Reflex or Fort Defenses, the Jedi can easily shove an opponent two steps down the condition track with a skill check in one round. Heck, doing this a couple times makes Force Disarm a heck of a lot easier to pull off.

Force Lightning is just a further insult, especially if you've already talked them two or three steps down the condition track. Hmm, that's actually an interesting idea for a Sith Big Bad, using Adept/Master Negotiator to undermine the PC's will before blasting them. That's rather evil... I LIKE IT!

 

[concerro]

I am actually basing my whole character around the concept. The DM countered with multiple enemies, and not letting us know which one is the main bad guy. I am not that good at it yet, but I plan on taking some PrC's that let me drop at least 3 condition a round. The party can then play cleanup.