D&D 5E I just don't see why they even bothered with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

[Jester David]

I would have like to see a book more akin to the Pathfinder: Inner Sea World Guide.

With the Inner Sea Guide we get 156 pages extra. Larger Area maps. A section dedicated to the factions of the region and lastly a huge full color Regional map that can be removed from the book. All for the price of $49.99

It's not trying to be the Inner Sea World Guide though. It's the equivalent of the Inner Sea Primer.

 

[Corpsetaker]

It's not trying to be the Inner Sea World Guide though. It's the equivalent of the Inner Sea Primer.

And I think that is why a lot of people don't like it.

 

[EZrider]

And I think that is why a lot of people don't like it.

Agreed.

Also, it's not that i don't like it because i kinda do. I just wanted more.

I get that this is geared towards players for the most part but it sorta goes half way between a "Setting Guide" and "Player's Guide". In reality enough has changed between the 3.5/4e/5e that a newer and updated Forgotten Realms World Guide and initial Sword Coast Player's Companion could have been warranted. In reality a World guide would have been better with all the player stuff being on the WotC site for download.

There are plenty of GM's who would like to get a full and current update on the Geo-political/Social structure of the Realms that more could have been fleshed within a larger "Champaign Guide/World Guide".

My rating for the SCAG is 2.5 stars out of 5.

 

[Jester David]

Agreed.

Also, it's not that i don't like it because i kinda do. I just wanted more.

I get that this is geared towards players for the most part but it sorta goes half way between a "Setting Guide" and "Player's Guide". In reality enough has changed between the 3.5/4e/5e that a newer and updated Forgotten Realms World Guide and initial Sword Coast Player's Companion could have been warranted. In reality a World guide would have been better with all the player stuff being on the WotC site for download.

There are plenty of GM's who would like to get a full and current update on the Geo-political/Social structure of the Realms that more could have been fleshed within a larger "Champaign Guide/World Guide".

My rating for the SCAG is 2.5 stars out of 5.

I'm pretty sure a full world guide is coming. This book just came out first (likely to synergize with Sword Coast Legends).

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I really enjoyed SCAG it be honest with you, I love the new options for some classes and races, and the flavor info was pretty great as well- granted i hadn't been much into the realms so much of the information was entirely new to me.

 

[Mark CMG]

I really enjoyed SCAG it be honest with you, I love the new options for some classes and races, and the flavor info was pretty great as well- granted i hadn't been much into the realms so much of the information was entirely new to me.

I think you are the target audience for this product. I think they believed that enough folks who knew more about the Realms had plenty of other flavor text from older products which they already have or could get on the secondary market that they weren't worried about it. More of a guide that simply contextualizes the Realms for their APs for folks who don't have a lot of Realms experience. Plus, a smattering of player targeted options. For folks like yourself, it seems to be a winner.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

No. Let's look at why.



Without a link to where this data is on that blog, this is an attribution that isn't substantiated. I went back through the last year's worth of posts on there, and Kickstarter only gets mentioned a handful of times, most often with regards to a Kickstarter that the author launched. With regards to the impact of Kickstarter on retailers, the only mentions were the following:

"Kickstarter is the ultimate disintermediating technology in the game trade." - That's an opinion, and not one that I agree with. Kickstarter is still an intermediary platform; publishers with their own webstores (e.g. Paizo) are just as, if not slightly more, disintermediating.

"What about these cool board games?"
"They sell just ok, but they use Kickstarter. Avoid most of them because of market saturation." - This is an example of a conversation he had with a new retailer when they met up at GAMA. The issue here seems to largely be based around market saturation of board games more than it is of Kickstarter itself.

""Don't know" comes off as ignorant or deceptive, so it wasn't surprising it kicked off a retailer discussion of whether Reaper was still right for game stores, or necessary, or even relevant with their direct to consumers Kickstarter model." - This is his characterization of a seminar at GAMA, and again, doesn't tell us much other than there was a discussion about Reaper and retailers, which touched on Kickstarter, among other issues. That's potentially interesting, but again, there's no data here; it's one person's anecdote about a conversation.

"If you're offering anything other than junk clearance (which you should also offer me, to keep me happy), I'm going to be frowning. This includes Kickstarter projects as well." - This is part of an article he wrote on selling directly to retailers in lieu of ordinary distribution channels. Specifically, his notation that he doesn't like it when special stuff is offered to consumers directly, without going through retail channels. I suppose I can understand that, but again, this is him saying what he doesn't particularly like.

In that same article, he also notes "An entire series of blog posts could be written on the Kickstarter-Retailer relationship." This seems to suggest that such a series of posts hasn't been written yet, which makes it even more of a hassle to wade through a blog with over a thousand posts and no tagging.

"Role playing games, in stores, are in trouble. Or more accurately, they're on the verge of irrelevancy due to their scattered nature, move to an electronic focus including PDFs and Kickstarter, rampant piracy, and a model that encourages only 20% of customers to buy products." - Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Here he's asserted that Kickstarter is part of the reason that role-playing games in stores are in trouble. But again, there's no particular data-driven information to help put this statement into context, or show exactly how Kickstarter plays a part in this. Without the data, there's really nothing to debate here.

At that point, I'd reached the one year mark, and still hadn't found any of the data that was purported to be there. Given that, since this blog was held up as having the information, I'm going to need to ask for a direct link to where it is on there.



I say this with all due respect, but this anecdote isn't credible. Saying that you've spoken with unknown (and therefore unverifiable) people who've told you information that's oddly salient to this conversation isn't anything that can be relied upon. That's why I haven't mentioned the nine store owners that I've spoken to across the American Midwest who said that Kickstarter projects that have appeared on their shelves have sold very well, or the other two who don't think that Kickstarter is a competitor at all...because how do you know that I'm being truthful, and not just making something up?

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] - does that explain it to you?

I'll mention that I don't have a bone in this fight, and actually wish that most of the content I see on Kickstarters ended up available at the retail level. The stores I've spoken to include four locations in Tucson, AZ and the one location in NM that I frequent regularly. I know the information I have to offer is anecdotal, but it's not a big industry, and the fact of the matter is if store owners are perceiving an impact and reacting to it, then what's driving or affecting the market is the owners themselves, who are basing their decisions on a combination of A. talking to each other, B. possible sales results from a couple tries or efforts at dabbling in stocking kickstarter content, and C. a likely lack of interest exhibited by their customers due to the competition of the online element (i.e. customers indicating lack of interest because they are already backing).

If you're serious about this I'd be happy to list store names and contact information...but again, I'm aware this is anecdotal evidence and since I trust that you are representing yourself accurately it sounds like you have a larger store sampling suggesting that Kickstarters are successful for retailers in your area. Maybe you could convince the AZ/NM crowd of the same.....I'd really appreciate it!

On Black Diamond: I'll see if I can dig up some specific examples, but I've been reading his blog for years and he's been very opinionated about his take on Kickstarters. I tend to weigh what he says in the retail corner of the market as more reliable because he is running one of the more successful San Francisco area stores and seems to take being a successful owner of a game store very seriously. If you follow his blog and read his sales charts, strategy, and general approach it becomes very clear that Kickstarters do not factor in at all.

Here's some links easily generated by googling Black Diamond Games and Kickstarter:

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/03/kickstarter-and-retailers.html

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-mark-of-kickstarter.html

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2013/05/our-reaper-relationship.html

Now, to play devil's advocate, and emphasize the actual end-point of my original post: I think the real issue with Kickstarter and retailers is that they appeal to two entirely different niches. Retailers collect the interest, often very much "on the surface" of the local game crowd. They need Pathfinder, D&D, Star Wars and a small number of other books for sale on the shelves with high visibility and good returns. Kickstarters specifically work best when the product is something with a lot of hobby interest that may not have a lot of local interest....prestige books and targeted projects which have a lot of potential fans, but not in any sort of cluster that would benefit local retail markets.

Again: not trying to convince anyone here of anything, as I already have lots of local evidence from the people I consider relevant to this topic (actual store owners) who are making crucial decisions for their business based on this data. In a perfect world our hobby would have lots of stats and data to support any argument, but we're generally left with vague figures related to online downloads, the ICV2 report which is shaky at best and some occasional factoids from places like Roll20. Not easy to compile accurate stats from any of that. But since the hobby is small enough, talking to retailers locally can at least tell you what their perception of the market is....and it sounds like you're in a much nicer area with a more receptive audience to Kickstarted products than I am.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

You're referring to my blog specifically here, so I thought I should reply. How do I know I'm losing sales? I talk to my customers. RPGs are especially a brutally idiosyncratic gaming category so it's imperative I understand what my RPG customers are playing, what they want, what they're waiting for, what direction they're going. I talk to them often. It's not uncommon to bring in an RPG product with ONE customer in mind, or carry an entire gaming system for 2-3 of them.

Many will tell me they already have a Kickstarter product or have backed it and hope to get it one day. This became very clear initially when as a store owner, I attempted to back EVERY RPG project on Kickstarter. There weren't that many initially, so it was possible. I've since backed about 40 projects in this fashion.

I can give you pretty nuanced numbers of my sales, but when it comes to sales I didn't make, you pretty much have to take my word for it. Believe me though when I say I'm not an outlier on this.

I also want to say my position on Kickstarter has become more nuanced over the years. I won't back projects as a retailer any longer, mostly because I've been burned too many time (I'm owed over $600 in failed to deliver KS projects). But I will bring in KS derived products in distribution if they meet certain criteria. For example, funding that hits over $50K is generally a go. Boardgames with a 7.5 on Boardgamegeek are safe for a copy. And I do carry Reaper Bones after they've pretty much given the middle finger to the game trade.

RPGs are tougher though and here's a secret: nobody in the game trade wants to touch them anymore. If you've got a KS derived RPG and you're not an established company, the consolidators have closed the doors. The amount of small press RPGs has diminished significantly *through the established channels.* It's partially the highly fragmented nature of today's RPG market but it's also a boom in board games that make the work to support an RPG just too much.

Anyway, it's a golden age for RPGs, but for the players, not the traditional sellers of such products.

Just found this. Vindicated!!!!!!

 

[Alzrius]

I'll mention that I don't have a bone in this fight, and actually wish that most of the content I see on Kickstarters ended up available at the retail level. The stores I've spoken to include four locations in Tucson, AZ and the one location in NM that I frequent regularly. I know the information I have to offer is anecdotal, but it's not a big industry, and the fact of the matter is if store owners are perceiving an impact and reacting to it, then what's driving or affecting the market is the owners themselves, who are basing their decisions on a combination of A. talking to each other, B. possible sales results from a couple tries or efforts at dabbling in stocking kickstarter content, and C. a likely lack of interest exhibited by their customers due to the competition of the online element (i.e. customers indicating lack of interest because they are already backing).

The debate at hand was with regards to whether or not Kickstarters were directly competing with (and thus harming) brick-and-mortar stores. In regards to store owners "perceiving an impact and reacting to it," that's not really the same thing. Any particular market condition can be an impact, and it stands to reason that any impact would be reacted to. Whether it's a sudden upswing in popularity for a particular product line or the great economic downturn from a few years ago, almost anything is an impact. That's a distinct difference from the specific impact of a new kid on the block selling the same products that you are - not just the same hobby but the exact same products - which is something else again. If the customers don't have interest in buying something at a store because they've given their money to something else online, then that's not quite in the same realm as spending money at store X instead of their local brick-and-mortar retailer.

If you're serious about this I'd be happy to list store names and contact information...but again, I'm aware this is anecdotal evidence and since I trust that you are representing yourself accurately it sounds like you have a larger store sampling suggesting that Kickstarters are successful for retailers in your area. Maybe you could convince the AZ/NM crowd of the same.....I'd really appreciate it!

I'm uncomfortable with the presumption of listing names and contact information online without explicit permission. I know that business outlets aren't the same as individuals (one could even argue that they'd want to exposure), but it still seems to move a little too close to the direction of doxing for me. I'd prefer that you not do so, and I'm certainly not going to do so myself.

On Black Diamond: I'll see if I can dig up some specific examples, but I've been reading his blog for years and he's been very opinionated about his take on Kickstarters. I tend to weigh what he says in the retail corner of the market as more reliable because he is running one of the more successful San Francisco area stores and seems to take being a successful owner of a game store very seriously. If you follow his blog and read his sales charts, strategy, and general approach it becomes very clear that Kickstarters do not factor in at all.

I agree that he gives a lot of information, and opinions. Insofar as Kickstarter goes, I agree that it doesn't factor into his particular sales methodology at all, mostly because he says that he's been burned on some Kickstarters himself, and apparently sponsored one that - after it was created - hasn't sold very well. These are certainly commentaries about the nature of Kickstarter in and of itself, and even with regards to the relationship between retailers and Kickstarter, but doesn't seem to touch on the issue of direct competition.

Here's some links easily generated by googling Black Diamond Games and Kickstarter:

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/03/kickstarter-and-retailers.html

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-mark-of-kickstarter.html

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2013/05/our-reaper-relationship.html

To summarize, the first post talks about how publishers who are financing products on Kickstarter should work with retailers after the funding period has closed to get their newly-created book in front of people. The second post focuses on no longer wanting to stock products that were funded via Kickstarter, do to the perception of decreased demand for those products; he also notes (emphasis mine) "Unlike the PDF market, which sells a different product, or the direct sales competitor, who sells things at the same time as us, the Kickstarter product is sold to customers not only before we can get it, but with added benefits." Leaving aside the semantic use of the word "sold" there, this acknowledges that there isn't a competition for these products, since he couldn't sell them during a Kickstarter drive to begin with. The third post talks about Reaper Miniatures specifically, noting that their withdrawal from the game stores was largely Reaper's choice, and that this hasn't necessarily been bad for Black Diamond Games.

Now, to play devil's advocate, and emphasize the actual end-point of my original post: I think the real issue with Kickstarter and retailers is that they appeal to two entirely different niches. Retailers collect the interest, often very much "on the surface" of the local game crowd. They need Pathfinder, D&D, Star Wars and a small number of other books for sale on the shelves with high visibility and good returns. Kickstarters specifically work best when the product is something with a lot of hobby interest that may not have a lot of local interest....prestige books and targeted projects which have a lot of potential fans, but not in any sort of cluster that would benefit local retail markets.

I don't disagree here, though I'd say that this is (slightly) more expansive than just niches. While some of those Kickstarter products could potentially end up on store shelves after the funding period has completed, the fact that the demand for them will necessarily be much lower than other products would isn't really something that can be helped...especially knowing that there might very well still be demand for them that wouldn't exist had the Kickstarter not funded them in the first place (e.g. demand for a product that isn't made can't be satisfied). As such, it would seem to behoove game stores not to bother with Kickstarter products in the first place, since there's likely to be more demand for non-Kickstarted books. In essence, they're carrying different materials from the get-go.

Again: not trying to convince anyone here of anything, as I already have lots of local evidence from the people I consider relevant to this topic (actual store owners) who are making crucial decisions for their business based on this data. In a perfect world our hobby would have lots of stats and data to support any argument, but we're generally left with vague figures related to online downloads, the ICV2 report which is shaky at best and some occasional factoids from places like Roll20. Not easy to compile accurate stats from any of that. But since the hobby is small enough, talking to retailers locally can at least tell you what their perception of the market is....and it sounds like you're in a much nicer area with a more receptive audience to Kickstarted products than I am.

More data is always nice, but at the same time there's compelling reasons for various business entities not to release said data, so I doubt we'll ever have anything that approaches hard evidence to the degree that would be required to end this debate once and for all. That's especially true if we try to measure the indirect competition as a metric, since that would mean figuring out what people would have bought if they hadn't spent their money on X, which is virtually impossible to do.

 

[Angel of the Dawn]

I'll just throw this in here.

I picked up the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide because of the character options, so I can mine it for my homebrew games and settings. I wasn't disappointed, there; we have the bladesinger, the storm sorcerer, and the purple dragon knight I'm planning to reskin as a warlord, along with a whole boatload of backgrounds and other stuff. I've never cared about the Forgotten Realms much, seeing it more as a stage for D&D fiction than anyplace I'd want to adventure or run a game.

Then I read the book. Now I'm actually interested in the setting as both a player and maybe even as a GM. I could take the info on just the dwarf kingdoms and run a great campaign from that. (And I find dwarves, by and large, boring.)

So the book not only gave me good crunch and mineable material, it made me care about a setting I didn't care much about. So I'd call that a success, and I don't regret giving WotC my money. Sorry some of you don't feel the same way.