D&D 5E I'd like to know the thinking behind this....

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I dislike the inclusion of tieflings as a core race in 5E for the same reason I did in 4E, it's not a classic archetype (even by D&D standards) but a world-specific one, and as such it belongs in the sourcebook for that world or briefly summarized in the MM rather than the core player rules. Ditto dragonborn.

I mean, I'm the guy at the table who always wants to play catfolk, wolfen, or even gnolls, but I know they're outliers. And as such, they don't belong in the core book. A brief writeup in the MM for "_____ player characters" should be enough.

-The Gneech :cool:

They're only not a "classic archetype" because they haven't appeared in several books previously. But just wait. Once 8E comes around and tieflings will have appeared in four editions previously... at that point they'll also be considered a "classic archetype", the exact same way the half-orc is now.

But by clinging to the idea that you can only include races in the Player's Handbook that have appeared in several previous Player's Handbooks... means that we'll never see any changes to the races of the Player's Handbook. And that's kind of lame, if you ask me. I mean, if we did that with classes, we'd never have the Barbarian, we'd never have the Warlock, we'd never have a Bard that wasn't some weird multi-classed prestige class.

Books change. Attitudes change. New stuff sometimes gets added, old stuff sometimes goes away. That's the way it's always been, that's the way it'll always be.
 

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Henrix

Explorer
Naaah, the real reason they put in tieflings is because it was in 4e. The intent was, as I understand it, to allow someone picking up the 5e PHB to basically make the same archetypes with that book that they could make in any previous PHB. So Dragonborn and Turathi tieflings are important for that goal.

I think they put tieflings in 4e because it was a fairly popular race in 3e (and in Planescape (Torment or p&p); who does not love Annah?)

They appear as interesting figures in some 3e FR novels. They even had representatives in the Baldur's Gate games.


Aasimar never garnered such popularity.


Why? Well, conflicts are interesting. Somebody fighting their evil upbringing and heritage to do basically good stuff is a lot more interesting than a being of goodness doing good stuff. (See Driz'zt.)


It could be interesting to see a story about an aasimar battling his nature to do evil would do it. But stories with evil main protagonists tend to be boring.
 

The_Gneech

Explorer
But by clinging to the idea that you can only include races in the Player's Handbook that have appeared in several previous Player's Handbooks... means that we'll never see any changes to the races of the Player's Handbook.

That's not what I was suggesting. By "classic archetype," I'm referring to the archetypes of centuries of fantasy fiction, myth, legend, and faerie stories, not the relatively recent phenomenon of players handbooks. :p

Even the half-orc has precedent in Tolkien, if only by implication (IIRC is was a random comment by Sam about some of Sharkey's men having "something orcish" to them). Fauns and centaurs would be better choices for PHB races than tieflings and dragonborn. The barbarian is a classic fantasy archetype, thanks to Howard and Lieber.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Vic Ferrari

Banned
Banned
That's not what I was suggesting. By "classic archetype," I'm referring to the archetypes of centuries of fantasy fiction, myth, legend, and faerie stories, not the relatively recent phenomenon of players handbooks. :p

Even the half-orc has precedent in Tolkien, if only by implication (IIRC is was a random comment by Sam about some of Sharkey's men having "something orcish" to them). Fauns and centaurs would be better choices for PHB races than tieflings and dragonborn. The barbarian is a classic fantasy archetype, thanks to Howard and Lieber.


Definitely, and especially with some chicks (and me).
 


Vic Ferrari

Banned
Banned
And D&D is not one of those games.

If it was... we never would have gotten AD&D. And the current Basic Game is pretty much what we only would have had these past 40 years.


I partly agree, and partly disagree, I do not want this game to move so far away from Basic/AD&D that is it unrecognisable as what it is and inherently founded on.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I partly agree, and partly disagree, I do not want this game to move so far away from Basic/AD&D that is it unrecognisable as what it is and inherently founded on.

Which I think we can all agree does not happen just because they include the tiefling and dragonborn in the Uncommon section of the races chapter.
 


So, they include Tieflings in a game primarily focused on being good guy heroes. Tieflings are put in because they have a dark streak so people want to be edgy or whatever. That's fine, but then they don't put in Aasimar because they think they are boring or something?

I would venture a guess to say they put tieflings in there because they are popular, and they excluded Aasimar because they are not.

Okay, well I guess i'm completely stupid for wanting THE good race in my heroic game, but whatever I'll accept that i have to have a dark streak tiefling. Okay cool, so by looking at the races we seem to be able to play characters that are not good.

None of the races are inherently evil. Obviously, having the heritage of a fiend/orc might make you more inclined to be evil, because it comes along with a lot of mistrust and discrimination, but the book even outright states "tieflings might not have an innate tendency toward evil, but many of them end up there." Any of the races can be evil, this has been true of every game.

So I get to be evil, but no all the good domains of a cleric but not the evil/death ones? No flirting with the dark side as a cleric, but as a race? Sure. WTF. Yet I can be a necromancer as a wizard. How much more confusing is this getting??

This is probably because while being Evil is an option, it's also discouraged. Nobody wants a truly evil character in their group. The only time I've ever had that happen, the evil character tried to have all of the others killed and I outright banned that player from the game when he showed no remorse. But as with necromancy it probably comes back to popularity; necromancers are an established part of D&D, whereas Death Domain Clerics are not.

Also as a paladin, I get to be a quintessential good paladin, be a paladin of vengeance which are known as black knights, but I can't break my oath if I experience an even I disagree with to the core of my being.

Where does it say you can't break your oath? There are no actual rules saying that breaking your oath has direct consequences, just a small paragraph in an optional box saying the DM might want you to pick a different class if you don't care about following one of the oaths.

I know this stuff will be in the DMG, but I'm looking through and I have no ****ing clue what the thinking was being putting some of this stuff in and taking some of it out in the PHB. It clearly seems like they want the player to have the ability to have a dark streak, but not one so much as to run evil campaigns. But they also didn't want anyone to run -the- quinessential opposed tiefling race of good (Aasimar/deva whatever you want to call it) and believe me if you have watched Supernatural, or played Diablo 3. Those angels do rediculous stuff for the greater "good". So I reject the argument of "They are a boring race". No **** that, do your job better and use some creativity.

This got awful personal real fast. This isn't an endless book where they can put stuff in wherever they want. Everyone is going to have some things they want that are missing, but saying that the writers should have done their job better because they didn't put in something you wanted is entitlement at its worst.

I hate to speak as bluntly as this, but this is pretty much the gist of it: The options that you want are likely not popular. Because of that, they excluded them from the book. If you don't like it, houserule it, simple as that.
 

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