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Idea: Equipment based skills and skill checks

ferratus

Adventurer
I was sitting and thinking about skills, and why it isn't a problem that everyone can pick locks, because generally only one guy buys the lockpicks. Like a thunderbolt I realized only one guy buys the lockpicks. We already have a cost that discourages players from being skilled in everything, and that cost is money. So why put an artificial cost as well, which is a limited number of skill ranks or slots?

We are basically codifying in D&D equipment lists in a way that is already true in OD&D and 1e games run by good DM's, but perhaps with a couple tweaks, we can remove any fears of "mother may I" problems from the mediocre DM's. So not a new idea, but hopefully tweaked enough to be acceptable to players used to skills.

The implications of going to a equipment based skill bonuses are as follows:

1) If you own something you are trained how to use it. You don't need merchant profession checks, you own a market stall or a stock wagon. You don't put skill points or feats to be a blacksmith, you are a competent smith if you own a blacksmith workshop. If you bought a griffon or a warhorse, you've trained in how to ride and fight with them before you try to get on and go into battle. If you own a sextant and/or a compass you know how to navigate etc. etc. Everything that is pretty much a trained only skill in 3e requires special equipment, so you assume they know how to use it if they bothered to buy it.

2) Since you need equipment to gain bonuses to skills, or to bypass skill checks completely, party members need to sit down and make sure they are properly equipped for an expedition. So instead of going over their skill lists, and making a plan, they will be going over their equipment lists instead. Instead of making sure someone knows the skill open locks, they make sure they have lockpicks, files, and hacksaws for example.

3) Some tools give you a bonus to overcome your ability score limitations (crowbars give a bonus to bending bars) but sometimes it allows you to bypass it completely (a compass always points north, so you don't need to make a wisdom check to find north). This as a consequence makes high ability scores less important when it comes to the skill side of the game.

So let's see how well this model holds up as I go through each category of skills.
 

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DogBackward

First Post
I think a huge draw of Next is that we're moving away from requiring large amounts of money to be a competent adventurer. Not to mention allowing the richest party member to be the best at every skill just for having the most money. Adventurers aren't awesome because they have the best stuff... they're awesome because they're awesome.
 

FinalSonicX

First Post
I don't like this idea much, the skills are possessed by the individual, not the equipment. At higher levels, we all know how quickly wealth can build. I do not look forward to the idea of the entire party being locksmiths just because they threw a few silver at the outfitter to get a set of picks.

Not to mention that guarding wealth is now even more critical as a GM with such a system, since not only is wealth adding the potential for combat ability and maybe magic items, it also has the potential to significantly boost available skills.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
PHYSICAL SKILLS
The first type of skills are purely physical that require no equipment. Running, jumping, swimming, climbing, etc. The ability scores work just fine for differentiating how good people are at doing things like that. If you are an athlete, you have a higher dex, higher con, higher strength. If your fighter has a str of 9, a dex of 8, and a con of 10... I'm sorry, but he skipped gym. He is not trained very well in any of the physical skills, including his weapon (because his attack score would be abysmal too). Since you already have a bonus for physical ability score to the check, adding skill training would just be be stat inflation. Ability scores represent physical fitness and training already, so not having a skill boost just keeps the numbers of the DC low.

The way to improve your skills in the purely physical sense is to have equipment, perhaps by bypassing the check altogether. If you have no strength for climbing, a grappling hook rope or hammer and pitons allows you to bypass the wall without making a check (or make a considerably easier one). If you have trouble swimming, something that floats or a pair of flippers can make that considerably easier. If you have trouble running, you buy a horse and cart. etc.

This would allow physically weaker characters succeed along with the stronger characters, whereas making skills more important than equipment merely exacerbates the spread of difficulty. If you have a +10 to that skill, and your party members only have +2, and all your equipment gives you a piddly +1 bonus... then what is the use of that skill a lot of the time? You can make the DC's but they can't.

Ability scores therefore are better, because everyone can at least an attempt with a good chance of success, and while you are better than people who aren't as strong, or nimble, or fit as you are, you usually aren't doing things that they don't have a chance of doing it with you. Which is good, because low level parties should be spending most of their time being stealthy, and you should never split the party.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
I think a huge draw of Next is that we're moving away from requiring large amounts of money to be a competent adventurer. Not to mention allowing the richest party member to be the best at every skill just for having the most money. Adventurers aren't awesome because they have the best stuff... they're awesome because they're awesome.

The richest party member is probably higher level than anyone else (no matter what edition you are playing) so he's better at all his skills anyway in a skill system.

Ability checks aren't going away here, it is just the skill bonuses are coming from equipment.

Also, adventurers are only awesome in a skill system if their skill is maxed out. If their skill isn't maxed out, they suck at basic competance, even at general tasks you or I can do. That's what you get with a skill system.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
The richest party member is probably higher level than anyone else (no matter what edition you are playing) so he's better at all his skills anyway in a skill system.

Ability checks aren't going away here, it is just the skill bonuses are coming from equipment.

...but by level 3 a typical character can buy pretty much any non-magical tool small enough to fit in a backpack (and most of the non-magical things bigger than that too). To make this work you'd have to fill the equipment guide with "Lordly Master Lockpicks +17" that cost 500g apiece, because EVERYONE is going to carry a set of lockpicks around

Also, let's not forget that warlocks with that one invocation can create any non-magical item pretty much however often they want. Talk about a "jack of all trades" ;)
 

Gryph

First Post
Seems like its setting the abstraction point for skills in the wrong place. If being able to buy a dog were able to grant skill in animal handling rich men wouldn't strap dogs to the top of their cars.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
I don't like this idea much, the skills are possessed by the individual, not the equipment. At higher levels, we all know how quickly wealth can build. I do not look forward to the idea of the entire party being locksmiths just because they threw a few silver at the outfitter to get a set of picks.

Oh no, not a party of locksmiths. That's the most broken build of all.

Listen, the reason why people buy equipment is that they want to use it. If they want to use it, they learn how to use it. In your example, everyone in the party wanted to learn how to pick locks either because

a) they found it a skill worth learning to be a well-rounded dungeoneer or
b) they want to be a thieves' guild.

There is nothing wrong with either scenario. In fact, in the oldest days of OD&D solitary adventurers often knew every skill. That's how you could have a 1 on 1 game session with the DM. With limited skills you need 4 or 5 players to cover the bases.

Everyone knowing the same trained skill isn't going to break the game, because you can usually succeed if one person knows the skill. So what's wrong with having a little bit of redundancy, especially since the person with the highest applicable ability score is probably going to be delegated to do the job anyway.

One 2e session I had a thief who couldn't come. Since I use secondary skills and not proficiencies, and because my thief skills are ability checks (my own house rules) the ranger pulled out a set of lockpicks and picked the locks. I was flummoxed that he was doing this for a bit, but he explained that he had learned how to do it by watching the thief. My 4e "say yes" training kicked in, and he picked the lock. Later I thought it over, and I thought that was fantastic. Why shouldn't higher level adventurers learn from each other and become more well-rounded players? The guy with the high dex score came back next session, and he became the party safecracker again. Nothing broke because the ranger showed a talent for picking locks.

Not to mention that guarding wealth is now even more critical as a GM with such a system, since not only is wealth adding the potential for combat ability and maybe magic items, it also has the potential to significantly boost available skills.

Yeah, but passing skill checks won't break the system. There is literally no case in which the party passing a lot of skill checks will break the game. It just means that party members will do more things as a group, like riding horses in a calvary unit, playing the politics of intrigue at court, or sneaking as a group.

All things which you pretty much kick out of the game unnecessarily in the name of balance.
 

DogBackward

First Post
The richest party member is probably higher level than anyone else (no matter what edition you are playing) so he's better at all his skills anyway in a skill system.
This isn't always true, though. Any game can have someone who manages to score more wealth than the other players. Especially if we stop acting like wealth just magically spreads out to equalize itself among groups. Expecting everybody in the same adventuring party to have the same amount of wealth is artificial and boring, not to mention wholly unrealistic.

Also, adventurers are only awesome in a skill system if their skill is maxed out. If their skill isn't maxed out, they suck at basic competance, even at general tasks you or I can do. That's what you get with a skill system.
Except that that's going away completely with Next. Base +3, max +7. With flat math and the DC's they have set, this isn't even close to a problem anymore.

Not to mention, with skills based on items instead, you get the situation where the brilliant merchant haggler suddenly forgets how to talk to people because his stall/wagon got destroyed.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
...but by level 3 a typical character can buy pretty much any non-magical tool small enough to fit in a backpack (and most of the non-magical things bigger than that too).

Well part of that is handing out bags of 100 gp at 1st level. Don't do that, and switch to more modest equipment at low levels, and give them equipment to spend on.

because EVERYONE is going to carry a set of lockpicks around

So? Maybe they want to pick locks. If they don't want to pick locks, they won't carry lockpicks around. What's the problem?

Also, let's not forget that warlocks with that one invocation can create any non-magical item pretty much however often they want. Talk about a "jack of all trades" ;)

Yep, some small low level fabrication spell might be all right. I might switch it to a ritual, but maybe not. I mean what is he going to do with it? If he makes lockpicks, he'll pick locks. If he makes a floatation device like a piece of wood, he'll be able to swim alongside the fighter. If he makes a cart, he'll haul out treasure. If he makes a hammer and saw, he'll fix a cart he already has. If he makes a rope, he'll climb a wall.

Nope, none of those things break the game. It just means that the party has to be a little less careful about their provisioning. So what?
 

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