Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[Harlock]

Players nova its happened in every edition to some extent. It happens in 4E too and the reason it wasn't a problem last night in our 4E game? We knew we were up against a deadline otherwise our 4E party probably would have strongly considered resting after one fight. Not to mention that on at least 4 seperate occasions the DM was so bothered by our group blowing dalies on the fight that he kept mentioning how "it must be nice that you guys know you won't need those dalies in the fights to come". Suggesting on some level that we should not have been going nova. So try as some folks might to present 4E as the edition which "fixed" this "issue" it always been up to the DM to fix not the system, and that has remained the solution regardless of edition including the current iteration despite claims to the contrary.

So novas are a problem if you allow them to be as the DM seems very true to me. That the solution is AEDU just makes me laugh.

Our group's situation in 4th edition also proved problematic. Because we are all responsible adults with children, blah, blah, blah, our game time was rather short. After socializing and snacking we had maybe two hours of real game time. Our DM actually encouraged us to expend our dailies because there were some survival issues we had as a group and because one combat was all we were going to get in a session anyway since 4e combat lasted forever for our group. It really became quite boring. Why players want to blow all their powers if they don't have to is beyond me.

 

[nightwyrm]

Players nova its happened in every edition to some extent. It happens in 4E too and the reason it wasn't a problem last night in our 4E game? We knew we were up against a deadline otherwise our 4E party probably would have strongly considered resting after one fight. Not to mention that on at least 4 seperate occasions the DM was so bothered by our group blowing dalies on the fight that he kept mentioning how "it must be nice that you guys know you won't need those dalies in the fights to come". Suggesting on some level that we should not have been going nova. So try as some folks might to present 4E as the edition which "fixed" this "issue" it always been up to the DM to fix not the system, and that has remained the solution regardless of edition including the current iteration despite claims to the contrary.

So novas are a problem if you allow them to be as the DM seems very true to me. That the solution is AEDU just makes me laugh.

But in this case, the entire party has nova'd. It's not that the casters ran out of spells while the fighters still have lots of hp and wants to go on.

There's actually two issues here, even though they look identical. One is pacing, where the DM wants the PC party to have X encounters between each full rest. The other is the difference in combat effectiveness over time (let's call it stamina) between different classes and thus different classes prefers to rest at different times. AEDU is a solution to the second but not to the first.

One thing to consider though is that the nova'ing wizard might've just saved the fighters a bunch of hp, which ultimately comes out of the cleric's spell slots or the CLW stick (gold). Seen this way, the decision to trade spells for hp is really just another case of strategic resource management. Spells are a quickly renewable, high impact, and safe (you don't die if you run out of spells, unlike hp) resource. It's obvious why "nova and rest" is such an attractive option. Unless one of those three qualities changes about spells, I don't see that strategy going away.

A solution which I never see anybody proposes is just to make easier fights. What happens is that the DM sees the wizard blow away an encounter with one spell. Next fight he makes it tougher and then the wizard has to use two or three spells. So the DM makes the next fight even tougher. Pretty soon, the wizard has to nova all the time just to keep his party alive. The DM has trained his PCs to nova to keep themselves alive.

 

[Shadeydm]

But in this case, the entire party has nova'd. It's not that the casters ran out of spells while the fighters still have lots of hp and wants to go on.

There's actually two issues here, even though they look identical. One is pacing, where the DM wants the PC party to have X encounters between each full rest. The other is the difference in combat effectiveness over time (let's call it stamina) between different classes and thus different classes prefers to rest at different times. AEDU is a solution to the second but not to the first.

One thing to consider though is that the nova'ing wizard might've just saved the fighters a bunch of hp, which ultimately comes out of the cleric's spell slots or the CLW stick (gold). Seen this way, the decision to trade spells for hp is really just another case of strategic resource management. Spells are a quickly renewable, high impact, and safe (you don't die if you run out of spells, unlike hp) resource. It's obvious why "nova and rest" is such an attractive option. Unless one of those three qualities changes about spells, I don't see that strategy going away.

A solution which I never see anybody proposes is just to make easier fights. What happens is that the DM sees the wizard blow away an encounter with one spell. Next fight he makes it tougher and then the wizard has to use two or three spells. So the DM makes the next fight even tougher. Pretty soon, the wizard has to nova all the time just to keep his party alive.

Ok so the DM should have to "fix" the "problem" you just prefer another method of "fixing" called making encounters easier. Either way the DM "fixes" the problem. Some prefer the nature of the adventure or surroundings to "fix" the "problem" and to the run the type of fights they want to run. Personally I don't see a problem that needs fixing but like many people have already mentioned a living breathing evolving world tends to address these issues organically.

 

[nightwyrm]

Ok so the DM should have to "fix" the "problem" you just prefer another method of "fixing" called making encounters easier. Either way the DM "fixes" the problem. Some prefer the nature of the adventure or surroundings to "fix" the "problem" and to the run the type of fights they want to run. Personally I don't see a problem that needs fixing but like many people have already mentioned a living breathing evolving world tends to address these issues organically.

I'm not saying that the problem doesn't exist or that easier combats are always a good solution. Quite frankly, I find easy combats boring and a waste of time. I'm just pointing out that some DMs may inadvertantly have caused headaches for themselves without knowing it by making combat too difficult.

 

[Campbell]

There are actually 2 separate issues caused by having spell casters and martial characters on two one dimensional resource tracks. The first is the narrative constraint of requiring a certain amount of encounters each day for martial characters to shine. This has been dealt with. The other issue is that in any climatic confrontation its the characters who have the ability to step up their game that determine success. The fighter and rogue get to clear the trash, but its the wizard and cleric who fight the boss.

You don't need to set everyone on the same resource schedule to correct this. One solution is to use a secondary resource to limit how much a spell caster can bring to bear in a given situation. MRQ/Legend does this for sorcerers and common magic users. Magic points are an operational resource that determine how much power a spell caster can bring to bear over the course of a 12 hour period, but the resource that matters once initiative is rolled is combat actions. The more powerful the spell the more combat actions it takes to cast. Casting a spell in combat is a gamble because while casting you can't defend yourself. It's generally only done with the cooperation of the rest of the group scrambling to protect you while you attempt to get a big effect off. No costs are negligible even if facing multiple encounters in a day. Of course it helps that RQ magic points stay fairly limited. If a sorcerer manages to pull off a scry, buff, teleport routine for a group of 5 chances are the party better have an alternate plan to escape. Simply teleporting 5 characters a ~15 kilometers will cost ~7 magic points of a pool of about 13-18.

Another possible solution is to give a different sort of resource to the martial types. Perhaps like 13th Age rogues they get better as a fight goes on. If the nova potential of the spell casters is not strong enough to burst through the opposition the martial classes get to shine in a big way.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That the solution is AEDU just makes me laugh.

AEDU changes the equation from:

PreNova: 100% power
PostNova: 20% power

... to ...:

PreNova: 100% power
PostNova: 80% power

... and therefore, theoretically, disincentivizes giving up after a few short encounters.

As in, AEDU isn't primarily supposed to stop nova-ing. It's supposed to stop the 15-minute-adventuring day by limiting the impact of nova-ing on your remaining resources.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, random encounters extending the number of encounters is bad how?

Because a random encounter is one which is not, generally speaking, moving the story forward because it exists only to drain resources. And if you're including enough random encounters so that your player have to seriously plan for them, then ...

No, it's not solved, because the Vancian caster is still driving everyone to a [small number of] encounter per day and then forcing a rest so that he can survive the expected wandering monsters.

The problem you're trying to solve is "Vancian caster resource expenditure forcing a 15-minute adventuring day," and now you've just forced it to happen from the other side: instead of running themselves dry quickly and then forcing a rest, they run themselves to minimum required to safely rest and then force a rest.

 

[Elf Witch]

The power level of a daily caster is directly proportional to how many combats the party is expected to face between rests, and that number changes depending on the group and the DM. So sure, you can toss random encounters at the group and they'll learn to stretch out their spells over 3-4 encounters. But Bob down the street is letting his casters blow their loads and rest every encounter. And Gary in Ohio won't let his players rest until they've gotten through 6-8 encounters.

So the PROBLEM is that in each of these groups, the wizard's power level is vastly different. Bob's wizard is overpowered, your wizard is probably appropriate to the character level, and Gary's is underpowered.

So either you have to tell Bob and Gary that they're doing it wrong (badwrongfun), or you have to adjust the game mechanics to encourage (or force) casters to spread out their spells an appropriate amount.

This is one thing that drives me kind of nuts. Because some DMs can't run a game that stops wizards from going nova and then demanding rest we need more rules added on to fix this error in DMing.

How about instead of changing Vancian magic and making the rest of us who like it and enjoy how it works and have so for some 30 years you have an optional system that can be added to the game.

Or do what DMs have been doing for years house rule the fix so it works for your group.

 

[Elf Witch]

This is a very heavy-handed and gamist approach. Players will begin to notice that the rate of wandering monsters jumps if they're resting because the caster's out of spells versus when they're resting because the party really needs to rest. It also assumes the party can't make it to a safe area to rest - wandering monsters are useless if there's a nearby town.

This is not a solution to someone who sees this as a serious issue. Many people don't think "it's not broken if the DM can fix it" is a good approach to game design.

How is it heavy handed to keep players on their toes? Do you never throw something at the parry as they rest? If not why bother even wasting the time to set watches.

The trick to doing this is not to use a pattern and only do it when the spellcasters are out of spells. In my games players know that you need to set watches and not go nova because experience has taught them that they really don't know what is going to happen.

I play a lot of casters and I learned never to go nova unless there was no other choice and then if I did I sucked it up and tried to stay alive through the rest of the day because I have never had a DM allow a 15 minute adventuring day.

 

[Minigiant]

I simply give wizards

1 level of spells back per hour awake
2 level of spells back per hour awake but not doing anything they requires physical or mental stamina
4 levels of spell back per hour completely asleep.
1d6 levels of spell back per hour tracing

I do something similar with noncasters and HP.

Doesn't stop nova but it encourages the group to continue despite novas or heavy losses.