Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Er, actually, yeah, it is. If the problem was a Vancian caster blowing all their spells in one encounter (general implied definition of going nova) and you've shown and given them a reason not to do so then by the definition of the words "problem solved" yes, the problem was indeed solved.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a solution that doesn't immediately cause new problems?

Or, actually can be implemented easily in every campaign? Who is to say there is even a plausible reason for the PCs to have random encounters? If they ever get Teleport and a decent home, the last spell the Wizard casts will be Teleport.

 

[Sadras]

Most nova/at-will/encounter spell casting problems could be solved with a Fatigue/Risk mechanic. Encounter spells make less sense unless a Fatigue mechanic is in place. Why can't I have my mage casting one more spell, before passing out due to exhaustion, or have the hopeful cleric calling on the power of her God one more time to save her allies from death...before having raw Divine energies passing through her healing her party members while she suffers burns across her body and face.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is always a problem when the enemies are not reactive, or pro-active.

It is always a problem when the world stands still while the party rests.

Any battle that can be won via attrition is going to be easy. By keeping the opposition static, you've introduced (perhaps unwittingly) a situation in which the enemies are basically in a siege: they don't resupply, they don't re-equip, and it's only a matter of time before they are worn down.

This is why there's dozens of different ways to "recharge" your adventure if the party decides to take it slow.

The cause of the 15 minute workday isn't vancian magic. It's DMs who stop time whenever the party stops for a rest. And given the skill of most of the DMs on these boards, I don't think the 15 minute work day is something most of us have seen very much of.

 

[billd91]

If they ever get Teleport and a decent home, the last spell the Wizard casts will be Teleport.

And that produces its own complications for the PCs. It ties up the 9th level wizard's only 5th level spell for a getaway. The problem of getting back in against fortified defenses isn't solved at all until he can cast it twice. When the wizard can cast it twice, that's now 2 5th level spells tied up. And then 1 in 16 attempts can be expected to be seriously problematic, more if time pressure doesn't give the wizard an hour to study his new teleport-in landing zones. AND here's hoping he can take the whole party. He may not be able to.

For some wizards, that hassle may be worth it. That wizard ain't everybody.

 

[erleni]

I didn't play 4E.
Wasn't the "15 minute wizard" a problem with all classes in 4E? What did prevent any class to go nova on the first encounter and then demand a rest to recover the daily powers for the next encounter?

Even in previous editions, any class that had an important daily ability could demand a rest to recover it before going further on the adventure. Really, I've seen Fighters going back to town after an encounter to rest so they would always fight with full HP. Are you sure it is a rules problem?

The experience in our group is quite different. Our PCs normally don't use dailies unless we clearly see that encounter and at-wills powers cannot handle the encounter. So typically we hoard dailies through encounters until we face an encounter that is going south, either because the enemy is very dangerous or because we're really low on HP/surges. At that time usually we go into a daily nova to save our lives. Anyway, if after the nova we stiill have a reasonable number of HP/surges we usually go on.
The limiting factor we have seen is almost always HP/surges, while dailies are tipically an emergency button.
We once had a party made up by a Revenant Bleak Disciple Assassin, a Barbarian and a Shaman/Druid that had a pretty high level of THP generation and damage mitigation. During one adventuring day we faced thirteen combat encounters before going to rest and we didn't even care about when we spent our dailies. We just stopped when everybody was bloodied and the Shaman/Druid was the only one with a surge left.

 

[Minigiant]

It is always a problem when the enemies are not reactive, or pro-active.

It is always a problem when the world stands still while the party rests.

Any battle that can be won via attrition is going to be easy. By keeping the opposition static, you've introduced (perhaps unwittingly) a situation in which the enemies are basically in a siege: they don't resupply, they don't re-equip, and it's only a matter of time before they are worn down.

This is why there's dozens of different ways to "recharge" your adventure if the party decides to take it slow.

The cause of the 15 minute workday isn't vancian magic. It's DMs who stop time whenever the party stops for a rest. And given the skill of most of the DMs on these boards, I don't think the 15 minute work day is something most of us have seen very much of.

The problem is once you starts using Macguffins, Time limits, and No Safe havens, you have to keep doing it. Then it gets boring or stale when the party is always faced with "Continue or SOMEBODY DIES" situations.

Can't go anywhere without a kidnapee being soon sacrificed.

 

[HeinorNY]

The experience in our group is quite different. Our PCs normally don't use dailies unless we clearly see that encounter and at-wills powers cannot handle the encounter. So typically we hoard dailies through encounters until we face an encounter that is going south, either because the enemy is very dangerous or because we're really low on HP/surges. At that time usually we go into a daily nova to save our lives. Anyway, if after the nova we stiill have a reasonable number of HP/surges we usually go on.
The limiting factor we have seen is almost always HP/surges, while dailies are tipically an emergency button.
We once had a party made up by a Revenant Bleak Disciple Assassin, a Barbarian and a Shaman/Druid that had a pretty high level of THP generation and damage mitigation. During one adventuring day we faced thirteen combat encounters before going to rest and we didn't even care about when we spent our dailies. We just stopped when everybody was bloodied and the Shaman/Druid was the only one with a surge left.

I played every edition of D&D pretty much like that.
Except in 3E where the wizard, with Scribe Scroll at 1st level and a possible create wand and woundrous items later, never really needed to stop. The fighters and rogues went out of HP long before him.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is once you starts using Macguffins, Time limits, and No Safe havens, you have to keep doing it. Then it gets boring or stale when the party is always faced with "Continue or SOMEBODY DIES" situations.

Can't go anywhere without a kidnapee being soon sacrificed.

You don't have to use the same tactic(s) every time. Variety is spicy, and different circumstances will demand different responses.

But every time, you should consider what happens when the party rests, and how the enemies act during that rest.

Else there is no real long-term challenge.

 

[Aenghus]

I certainly observed the "15 minute" effect in 3rd edition at higher levels, particularly when the party had access to enough teleport to move the whole party.

But it was more associated with long lists of pre-cast buff spells than novaing, though the result was the same - the spellcasters quickly ran out of spell slots.

The sequence was:

• the spellcaster players in the party accumulated an ever increasing list of precast buff spells that massively increased the spike damage and defenses of the party for a limited time.
  
• while so boosted the party can crush standard combat encounters
  
• I as referee boost the difficulty of the average encounter somewhat, and major encounters significantly to compensate
  
• The party now will be wiped out by some encounters if not buffed, so feel driven to stop when the buffs run out.
  
• Some of the attacks the buffing spells defend against are so deadly that just not casting the defensive buff isn't an option for the non-suicidal PC if it's available.

I like high level play, both running for it and playing. For me the best way to reduce this problem is to limit buffing spells in some way. I never want to see players layered with 10 or more pre-buff spells on them ever again.

I also agree with the limits on long distance teleport that 4e introduced - teleports can only arrive at pre-prepared areas. It makes teleport much less broken and avoids having to mangle lots of scenarios to make certain plotlines fit.

I don't want to make lots of houserules to arrive at a usable system, and I prefer using the system as written whenever possible.

The other issue, is that of player class preference. Lots of people choose spellcasters for flavour reasons, not to carefully ration out spells over an entire adventuring day. Spellcasting classes don't have "Warning: this class works with only one style of play, deviate from this single approved style at your peril" stamped on them.

While I can advise players as to the strengths and weakness of various classes, , and push them towards classes I think would suit them, it smacks of elitism to ban people from playing certain classes because of their play style. Having a system that allows them to play the class they want without a resulting disappointing game experience for the group concerned would be great.

 

[ExploderWizard]

How do you stop it without constant "You have 5 minutes to save the world; GO!" scenarios?

Any time the players can pick their direction and timing (which gets easier as the levels increase), you run the risk of the 15-minute-workday.

The 15 minute workday is, if anything at all, a product of an artificial challenge structure. If adventures are structured as a series of difficult hurdles custom tailored to torture- test the capabilities of a party of X level assuming Y resources, then players will learn that they need to unload with the big stuff every time.

More organic, less scripted adventures will allow players to base resource usage on need instead of going nova as a reflex survival mechanism.