If you were paid to be a GM

[Janx]

Yeah. In fact I was a bit optimistic in my assessment that you're competing with a movie or kid's magician in terms of value; you're competing with craploads of people who are perfectly happy to do it for free. It's just not sustainable.

Even in a world where nobody GMs for free, we all come from different economic levels. A guy making the break from his crappy job to Pro-GM might be able to charge the same rate as his old job, and be "affordable" compared to some IT pro whose going rate is much higher.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I am no award winning DM, nor a publisher but in my little social circle, I am know for running a good game. I do it for the love of the game and to promote the hobby but IF I was paid for it, I think I would build a scale based on things like the level of the players, length of session and campaign, elements the players want to include into the game, etc..

Build a basic campaign: $30
Include Elements: Underdark: 10$ Planes (Hell): 10$ Horror: 10$
Players been playing 5 to 10 years: 10$
Session: 20$

So, base price up front 70$ and then 20$ each session

Grade Sheet would be by session with note that if I did not perform at a level list, money would be returned (to a point) and game would continue or be terminated.

 

[Argyle King]

Currently, I GM for my friends for free, but if I were to get paid...


I think, for me, the price would be negotiable.


Am I traveling to somewhere to run the game or am I expected to pick up some of the players? If yes, I'd expect the paying group to cover my gas money and possibly a small stipend for food.

If no, I am not traveling, and am instead running the game out of my home, I'd expect some of the pay to cover group assests such as snacks, drinks, and etc.

So far, none of this seems outside the norm from what the group I regularly game with at home does already.

After that, I'm not sure. Maybe $40/session as a base fee with me asking for more if the group expects minis, terrain, and other such things to be provided.

 

[WayneLigon]

Suppose you had an opportunity to get paid to GM a campaign. How much would you have to be paid *per session* to make it worth your while?

Assume that there is no travel time or expense involved - you are doing this according to your own schedule, at your own place of residence, online using a virtual tabletop.

That last certainly figures into whatever I'd charge. Ballpark figure: $250 cash per session, $500 if done any other way.

 

[Morrus]

That last certainly figures into whatever I'd charge. Ballpark figure: $250 cash per session, $500 if done any other way.

Would you pay $250 to see a movie which took 3 years and $50M to make?

 

[Janx]

Would you pay $250 to see a movie which took 3 years and $50M to make?

And that's what prices paid GMing out of the market.


Let's take a guy who makes $40K/year at his day job. Which is about $20/hour (dividing by the simple 2000 hours per year metric for quick approximation).

He's looking to change careers, and for practical purposes, needs to make the same amount of money in order to pay his bills (lest he lose his car or house or wife because they're broke).

Let's say he runs an 8 hour game. And pretend it takes 1.5 days to prep one of those 8 hour sessions. For a 5 day work week, that's 2.5 days total per session. (I'm trying to keep the math sort of simple here).

He can run 2 sessions per week (one saturday for Group A, one Sunday for Group B).

So it takes 20 hours total to do a game, 8 to run it, 12 to prep it. That's $400 he needs to charge for that session.

In order to maintain his $20/hour ->$40K/year lifestyle/expense level.

I think most of us would agree that $400 for a D&D session is a lot of money (even split 4 ways for the standard party size is $100). One could argue we'll pay $10-20 for a 2 hour movie, but there's gonna be some serious consumer balking.

So, let's get less greedy. Let's plug in a guy who makes minimum wage ($8/hour because I don't know the current # exactly in the US).

That's $8 * 20 hours = $160 bucks. Would you pay $40/player (assuming standard party size of 4) to play D&D with your friends under a professional GM (in a world where nobody GMs for free, perhaps)?

Sure, compared to a movie, it's a bargain for 8 hours of fun at $5/hour. But people aren't rational about stuff. And they tend to look at the big # without considering the time span. So a movie looks cheaper to most people.

And we're talking about paying a guy minimum wage. That's $16K/year which is like right next to the poverty level.

That may be a dream job to work at, but it don't pay a decent wage (by US costs of living).

Note: the danger in considering the economic value of a product proposition is playing the "hobby" card. In that somebody will do it for less than the work is worth. Sure, it's true, people are GMing for free now (and maybe 2-4 people on the planet get paid for GMing). But that's not how you make an economic determination on whether a proposition is worthy of investment. You look at its dollar cost, and value, compared to alternative activities that make also money. then you look at the final figure and determine if the market will bear that cost. If that answer is no, then you probably don't have a viable product.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Maybe they want you to DM because you are so awesome?

A non-terrible GM is a pretty important element to having a good game. However, in my experience, a game is only as fun as its least fun player. Even if you take a great GM and drop them in a "bad" group (whatever that means, perhaps it means differing expectations, perhaps it means combatative playstyles, whatever) then the game is not going to be fun for anyone. Also, in a group in which none of the members have the creativity, drive, or inclination to even be a passable DM then they're not going to bring a lot to the table themselves.

And I say "a non-terrible GM" above, because even a decent GM can run a really fun game. A terrible GM can drag an entire group down, of course, but as long as GM is mediocre, then the game isn't going to suffer. It might not be great, but it can be a fun game to play in. So, given a random 3-5 person group, there's probably somebody in there that can GM a fun, if not amazing, game.

That's the main reason I would, personally, worry at why money is being offered by a group.

 

[Morrus]

And we're talking about paying a guy minimum wage. That's $16K/year which is like right next to the poverty level.

But you don't pay ANY entertainment service per hour for the time it took them to create their service. You pay them for the time they entertain you. Why would anyone expect otherwise for GMing? Nobody goes to the theatre and then pays the actors and stagehands and crew thousands of dollars each for the 500 hours it took them to learn lines and rehearse. They pay for the price of a theatre ticket. You don't pay a cab driver for his driving lessons or cover the cost of buying his car. You pay $10 or something for one cab ride.

Like my magician example above. You pay a kid's magician for a couple of hours, not for 8 months.

The only way something like this can be paid reasonably is if you prepare it once, and then run it a hundred times, getting paid a little bit each time. Just like every other industry. The theatre actor gets paid a fair share (a salary) from the cumulative total of tens of thousands of people seeing the show. Otherwise it's like a kid's magician doing his act once and charging hundreds for the service, or a cab driver taking you on one trip and charging the customer $20,000 for the price of his car.

 

[fireinthedust]

The reason it could never work is because the amount of prep required increases the time, but the 'customer' is only getting a few hours' entertainment. I'd peg it close to a movie price per hour; the amount of preparation on the part of the cinema or filmmaker doesn't come into it - you pay for two hours' entertainment. A kid's magician at birthday parties may have spent months perfecting his act, but he only gets paid for a couple of hours' work; you don't pay him for 8 months. They make it work because they have lots of customers; an individual GM doesn't. Unless you could run the same game for a hundred groups, which could make it feasible, I suppose. Otherwise it's a fundamentally broken business model.

Nobody is going to pay someone for an entertainment service based on how long it takes the provider to prepare it. They'll pay what it's worth to them, and it's competing with movies and other forms of entertainment.

Exactly what I was thinking!!!

I get that previous posters need cash, but let's face it: $120/hour for a session?! Are you kidding? That's call girl cash, and trust me: you ain't that sexy!

But: If it's on Skype... you do know there are people who do this for free. PFS players on Skype, too! I don't see this model working out.

My group has batted about the idea of shelling out $5-10 per player to hire an outside GM for a game night so that we can play together rather than one of us GMing. Considering we usually have 4-8 players, that's no mean chunk of cash. Yet: We can't find anyone interested in running a game, cash aside. They haven't met us, either, just no responses.

If I was going to do this, I'd go per player, so it's cheaper than a movie but I get a good chunk of cash at the end of the session. Maybe a varying rate, like X per player up to two hours, then Y per player up to four, then Z for up to Max 8 hours.

You could do it if you worked at a game store regularly. Maybe with some celebrity (ie: Monte Cook runs Numenera once per month at a Starbucks). If it was a store, you could also have an offering: one place I worked/volunteered at had a regular Convention prize: whoever "won" the arena got a product of their choice. Granted, the entire group would throw in cash.

If you cut the GM into the bowl for the entry fees, but the players get a chance at a product or other prize...

 

[Janx]

But you don't pay ANY entertainment service per hour for the time it took them to create their service. You pay them for the time they entertain you. Why would anyone expect otherwise for GMing? Nobody goes to the theatre and then pays the actors and stagehands and crew thousands of dollars each for the 500 hours it took them to learn lines and rehearse. They pay for the price of a theatre ticket. You don't pay a cab driver for his driving lessons or cover the cost of buying his car. You pay $10 or something for one cab ride.

Like my magician example above. You pay a kid's magician for a couple of hours, not for 8 months.

The only way something like this can be paid reasonably is if you prepare it once, and then run it a hundred times, getting paid a little bit each time. Just like every other industry. The theatre actor gets paid a fair share (a salary) from the cumulative total of tens of thousands of people seeing the show. Otherwise it's like a kid's magician doing his act once and charging hundreds for the service, or a cab driver taking you on one trip and charging the customer $20,000 for the price of his car.

Well, that's all factored into the cost. You don't exactly tell the customer why the game costs $160 for the 8 hour session.

But since you can't get work and get paid during the 12 hours it takes you to prepare for that one 8 hour session, you have to factor that time into the price. Otherwise, you'll go broke.

You are correct that the GM needs be able to re-use his effort, in order to lower the effective cost of that labor time.

We all know a businesses costs are passed on to the consumer.
That's what my math illustrates in demonstrating a viable Pro-GM price model compared to a regular job.

If the GM can re-use his game session material on 4 groups, that reduces his effective prep time per session of 12 hours to 3 hours.

It also opens up more of his 5 day schedule to run more sessions (as I deliberately sized things to equal a traditional 40-hour work week).

If he can spread the cost of that 12 hours across 4 sessions, that's a cost reduction from 8+12 uhours to 8+3 hours. Plus he's got the potential for added volume (from 2 sessions a week to 4?).

Now the math gets more complicated to model these "what-ifs" but it shows the way the business decision needs to get made.

The price is inherently higher and less appealing to customers the less you can re-use material (adventure notes). if each session is custom to that client, you're stuck at higher costs.

If the person being employed needs to be at a higher income (i.e. middle class), that also puts a pretty stiff burden on the price that puts it out of the desirable reach. that rule's kinda obvious but I don't think people really do the math to put themselves and their tax bracket into the shoes of the dream job.