Hi. I’d just like to request for future articles in the IH website, on how to stat uber scifi civilizations such as the Downstreamers and the Xeelee. Also, how would you handle empire management and mass-combat that involves time-travel/manipulation and universe hopping/manipulation: how would you simulate the Last Great Time War for example. And also, how would you model apotheosis through technological singularity or Omega Point.
IH: Sci-Fi Edition
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy Chosen01 mate! 
Requests sound good, I'll add them to the queue of things I have to do.
The Xeelee are from Rifts right? Goes to google...
...then comes back...
...ah, okay, no. Some super-future race, albeit one that was still defeated, by the Photino Birds (interesting).
Also, finding virtually nothing online about the Downstreamers. Some links would help. I typed in Downstreamers Sci-fi into google (after Downstreamers itseld bagged a horde of canoeing websites) and your post here was the third on the list!
I think different science fiction handles time travel and reality jumping differently, so I think the 'Laws of Time Travel' etc. would have to be determined by the DM in any campaign.
Personally I am of the opinion that changing the timeline should be allowed BUT, with the caveat whereupon other beings will have the opportunity to undo, what the protagonist has done.
So for instance, in our campaign years ago (yes even before that Vecna adventure), I remember a Lich went back in time to change history on a certain planet and make himself a greater god. Rather than simply change everything immediately, we were allowed to perceive the timewave/distortion (whatever you want to call it) and fight our way into his stronghold to get to the timeportal and go back to fight him in the past. As I recall, the world had changed by the time we got to his throne room and he was a Greater God, but we only had to get past him into the time portal, so we only had to survive a round or two against him and his allies.
I think also that mucking about with time travel (or at least interfering in the timestream rather than simply observing) will bring you into conflict with the Inevitables - who are sort of like the Time Police.
Good question, I think it would have to be handled via the creation of the race itself. In other words you would make the race super-powerful from the start. I remember we had one such race in our D&D game (which I'll be adapting for 4E) which were these ultrapowerful psionicists/wizards where the babies were about as powerful as archmages.
In fact I actually have some races and monsters in the pipeline that are technological 'types'. Notably the Bisects, who are now going under the monicker of Atomic Demons (I think I initially had Cyberdemons - which was an obvious Doom the videogame reference).
Chosen01 said:
Requests sound good, I'll add them to the queue of things I have to do.
The Xeelee are from Rifts right? Goes to google...
...then comes back...
...ah, okay, no. Some super-future race, albeit one that was still defeated, by the Photino Birds (interesting).
Also, finding virtually nothing online about the Downstreamers. Some links would help. I typed in Downstreamers Sci-fi into google (after Downstreamers itseld bagged a horde of canoeing websites) and your post here was the third on the list!
I think different science fiction handles time travel and reality jumping differently, so I think the 'Laws of Time Travel' etc. would have to be determined by the DM in any campaign.
Personally I am of the opinion that changing the timeline should be allowed BUT, with the caveat whereupon other beings will have the opportunity to undo, what the protagonist has done.
So for instance, in our campaign years ago (yes even before that Vecna adventure), I remember a Lich went back in time to change history on a certain planet and make himself a greater god. Rather than simply change everything immediately, we were allowed to perceive the timewave/distortion (whatever you want to call it) and fight our way into his stronghold to get to the timeportal and go back to fight him in the past. As I recall, the world had changed by the time we got to his throne room and he was a Greater God, but we only had to get past him into the time portal, so we only had to survive a round or two against him and his allies.
I think also that mucking about with time travel (or at least interfering in the timestream rather than simply observing) will bring you into conflict with the Inevitables - who are sort of like the Time Police.
Good question, I think it would have to be handled via the creation of the race itself. In other words you would make the race super-powerful from the start. I remember we had one such race in our D&D game (which I'll be adapting for 4E) which were these ultrapowerful psionicists/wizards where the babies were about as powerful as archmages.
In fact I actually have some races and monsters in the pipeline that are technological 'types'. Notably the Bisects, who are now going under the monicker of Atomic Demons (I think I initially had Cyberdemons - which was an obvious Doom the videogame reference).
Here’s some info on the Downstreamers and the Xeelee:
- Downstreamers 1
- Downstreamers 2
- Xeelee 1
- Xeelee 2
- Civilization Tier List
***
Oh, and by simulating the “Last Great Time War”, I meant this. (I thought you were a big Dr Who fan) I'd like to see a reenactment with game rules
***
How would you model the multi- singularity levels of Orion's Arm?
- Downstreamers 1
- Downstreamers 2
- Xeelee 1
- Xeelee 2
- Civilization Tier List
***
Oh, and by simulating the “Last Great Time War”, I meant this. (I thought you were a big Dr Who fan
) I'd like to see a reenactment with game rules***
How would you model the multi- singularity levels of Orion's Arm?
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Ah, a fellow Baxter fan. I've read those books too (though I see after some quick research that I need to get Phase Space to really complete my collection of the Manifold series). My game actually features elements drawn from them, and The Time Ships too; for example, the portal to the higher dimensions that my players are partly trying to help open is powered by a Ring about 10 million light-years wide crafted entirely of cosmic string (sound familiar?).
I'd place the Xeelee on the level of Cosmic entities, probably each of them could be considered a Sidereal without Cosmic String (if that makes sense). The Photino Birds would be in the same range, but of course their numbers are far greater. The fact that both races execute plans on a time scale of millions of years says that anything less than Sidereal equivalency is pretty silly.
The Downstreamers, of course, are far greater than that. They'd have to be Eternals at a minimum; the fact that they actually destroyed a universe specifically to restructure the rest of existence says that much. The question to answer, then, is how high they are relative to things like High Lords; since they are known to have at their disposal an information-storage system that contains everything that ever did or ever could happen, everywhere, in the entire history of the universe, they're guaranteed to have at least one Omnific ability and so need to be at least High Lord (Duad) level I'd say. Of course, given that the aforementioned information system looks suspiciously like the Akashic Records, and while they're using it they're literally the last living things in existence, that pretty much places them above even the Eternal level and into Supernal territory. The interesting question there is, if you presume that multiple consciousnesses exist within the Downstreamer civilization (or what passes for it), what does that make each such consciousness? Is each one an effective Supreme Being? Or is some collective mind they all are part of, the real Supreme Being, and then each mind within it must be an avatar and therefore a High Lord?
Not knowing details of the Last Great Time War, I can't speak to that directly, but I can say that my own game uses the convention that more than one time dimension exists. Parallel timelines, representing the "many worlds" of the Everett-Wheeler interpretation of quantum mechanics, are part and parcel of Reality with everything else. This has the convenient effect of eliminating any possible time paradoxes: for if you go into the past and kill your younger self before you invented time travel, to use one basic example, it doesn't negate the timeline you originally came from (where you the inventor were not in fact killed by your future self and therefore survived to invent time travel) and you simply create a new timeline to follow. This also means that luck has a direct in-game manifestation, since every possible die roll for any given situation is represented in the continuum by its own timeline; thus, when you reroll a die, or make a Wish to change a result, you're really just traveling along the fifth dimension. Of course, the existence of this fifth dimension also has the effect of rendering time travel dramatically meaningless in the greater scale of things- after all, if making a new timeline changes nothing in the timeline you originally traveled from, then why bother with it at all? Your adventure plots and game style would have to take this factor into account.
Technological singularity, IMO, would best be resolved as an evolution (by the beings undergoing it) to the next higher tier on the chain; thus, mortal -> Deity -> Sidereal -> Eternal -> Supernal. If you want to describe precise game effects for it, and how technological apotheosis differs (if at all) from supernatural apotheosis, then you'll need to decide what each tier of being represents in scientific terms. My own campaign answers the question for Deities and Sidereals; it posits that Deities are beings whose minds are housed in energy patterns rather than physical bodies of any sort, and that Sidereals are minds encoded in patterns written into the quantum foam (or perhaps more precisely, the actual probability waves that govern particle behavior in the quantum sense). I haven't answered the question for Eternals or Supernals; if I'm honest, I probably never will (at least not until we have a definitive theory of quantum gravity in the real world that points to a level of existence more fundamental than the quantum). So getting back to apotheosis, once you know what each tier of being "is" in the scientific sense, you can then explain what the apotheosis process is like when a PC undergoes it- for example, in my games, I invariably described the process of ascension as involving the character's body being blown apart and/or dissolved by some sort of supremely powerful blast or wave of energy, but having his or her mind remain intact- and then reform the shattered body and equipment from the particles left behind by the energy wave.
In all of this, really, it's wise to keep (Arthur) Clarke's Third Law in mind: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The line between fantasy and science fiction- even "high" fantasy and "hard" science fiction- is not as rigid and unyielding as most people believe.
I'd place the Xeelee on the level of Cosmic entities, probably each of them could be considered a Sidereal without Cosmic String (if that makes sense). The Photino Birds would be in the same range, but of course their numbers are far greater. The fact that both races execute plans on a time scale of millions of years says that anything less than Sidereal equivalency is pretty silly.
The Downstreamers, of course, are far greater than that. They'd have to be Eternals at a minimum; the fact that they actually destroyed a universe specifically to restructure the rest of existence says that much. The question to answer, then, is how high they are relative to things like High Lords; since they are known to have at their disposal an information-storage system that contains everything that ever did or ever could happen, everywhere, in the entire history of the universe, they're guaranteed to have at least one Omnific ability and so need to be at least High Lord (Duad) level I'd say. Of course, given that the aforementioned information system looks suspiciously like the Akashic Records, and while they're using it they're literally the last living things in existence, that pretty much places them above even the Eternal level and into Supernal territory. The interesting question there is, if you presume that multiple consciousnesses exist within the Downstreamer civilization (or what passes for it), what does that make each such consciousness? Is each one an effective Supreme Being? Or is some collective mind they all are part of, the real Supreme Being, and then each mind within it must be an avatar and therefore a High Lord?
Not knowing details of the Last Great Time War, I can't speak to that directly, but I can say that my own game uses the convention that more than one time dimension exists. Parallel timelines, representing the "many worlds" of the Everett-Wheeler interpretation of quantum mechanics, are part and parcel of Reality with everything else. This has the convenient effect of eliminating any possible time paradoxes: for if you go into the past and kill your younger self before you invented time travel, to use one basic example, it doesn't negate the timeline you originally came from (where you the inventor were not in fact killed by your future self and therefore survived to invent time travel) and you simply create a new timeline to follow. This also means that luck has a direct in-game manifestation, since every possible die roll for any given situation is represented in the continuum by its own timeline; thus, when you reroll a die, or make a Wish to change a result, you're really just traveling along the fifth dimension. Of course, the existence of this fifth dimension also has the effect of rendering time travel dramatically meaningless in the greater scale of things- after all, if making a new timeline changes nothing in the timeline you originally traveled from, then why bother with it at all? Your adventure plots and game style would have to take this factor into account.
Technological singularity, IMO, would best be resolved as an evolution (by the beings undergoing it) to the next higher tier on the chain; thus, mortal -> Deity -> Sidereal -> Eternal -> Supernal. If you want to describe precise game effects for it, and how technological apotheosis differs (if at all) from supernatural apotheosis, then you'll need to decide what each tier of being represents in scientific terms. My own campaign answers the question for Deities and Sidereals; it posits that Deities are beings whose minds are housed in energy patterns rather than physical bodies of any sort, and that Sidereals are minds encoded in patterns written into the quantum foam (or perhaps more precisely, the actual probability waves that govern particle behavior in the quantum sense). I haven't answered the question for Eternals or Supernals; if I'm honest, I probably never will (at least not until we have a definitive theory of quantum gravity in the real world that points to a level of existence more fundamental than the quantum). So getting back to apotheosis, once you know what each tier of being "is" in the scientific sense, you can then explain what the apotheosis process is like when a PC undergoes it- for example, in my games, I invariably described the process of ascension as involving the character's body being blown apart and/or dissolved by some sort of supremely powerful blast or wave of energy, but having his or her mind remain intact- and then reform the shattered body and equipment from the particles left behind by the energy wave.
In all of this, really, it's wise to keep (Arthur) Clarke's Third Law in mind: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The line between fantasy and science fiction- even "high" fantasy and "hard" science fiction- is not as rigid and unyielding as most people believe.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Hey all!
Thanks for the copious links, just spent the past hour or so reading up on the information.
Heres another interesting link I found...
Abusing The Kardashev Scale For Fun And Profit - Television Tropes & Idioms
I still think my own Table was pretty good...
Immortality
...although I might change that somewhat, and its also worth pointing out that an Elder One (on that scale) is effectively equivalent to a Type 2 Civilisation all by itself. Collectively, Elder Ones might indeed be higher.
I think going by tiers is the simplest method.
Immortals ~ Type III collectively
Sidereals ~ Type IV
Eternals ~ Type V
Supernals ~ Type VI
Hypernals, Ultrals etc.
As for the Last Great Time War, I immediately got the Dr Who reference, although I did ponder if some other sci-fi had a similarly monickered war. But there is scant information to go on. Basically all they seem to simulate is a bunch of 'deus ex machina' moments, rather that something thats actively 'worked towards'.
Thanks for the copious links, just spent the past hour or so reading up on the information.
Heres another interesting link I found...
Abusing The Kardashev Scale For Fun And Profit - Television Tropes & Idioms
I still think my own Table was pretty good...
Immortality
...although I might change that somewhat, and its also worth pointing out that an Elder One (on that scale) is effectively equivalent to a Type 2 Civilisation all by itself. Collectively, Elder Ones might indeed be higher.
I think going by tiers is the simplest method.
Immortals ~ Type III collectively
Sidereals ~ Type IV
Eternals ~ Type V
Supernals ~ Type VI
Hypernals, Ultrals etc.
As for the Last Great Time War, I immediately got the Dr Who reference, although I did ponder if some other sci-fi had a similarly monickered war. But there is scant information to go on. Basically all they seem to simulate is a bunch of 'deus ex machina' moments, rather that something thats actively 'worked towards'.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy Omeganian dude!
Might be a little bit like my Bi-sect race...maybe
Omeganian said:
Might be a little bit like my Bi-sect race...maybe
@paradox: I have a similar idea I’m trying to expand on. Basically, Quintessence = quantum waves. The four cardinal elements = particles. Together they form the omniversal DNA.
The Downstreamers are like the Lipika and/or the Supreme Being. You might even classify them as “Beyond the Beyond” with their ability to create new sets of multiverses with its own rules.
@UK: Here’s an expanded Kardashev Scale - Link
I came up with a scale that combines the IH’s Divine Heirarchy, Halo’s Tech Achievement Tiers and the tech levels at orbitalvector.com. The Xeelee would be Demiurge level Worldbuilders, which is tech level 24-30. If non-Epic Industrial Age is lvl 10, then the Epic Atomic-Age/Space-Age is lvl 11-13, the Space-Age/Space-Faring Immortals is lvl 14-17 (about the same as the Eclipse Phase setting, which has tech that effectively makes you immortal). The first singularity is the transition from Transhuman Immortals to Posthuman Sidereal Worldbuilders lvl 18-23 (a lvl 18 civ can build a megastation, balloon world, or a Forerunner Halo). The Omega Point is the transition from Demiurge to Time Lord Transsentients at lvl 30-31.
Roughly in the Kardashev Scale, this would be:
Type 0-I = Non-Epic/Epic
Type II = Epic/Immortal
Type III = Immortal/Sidereal
Type IV = Sidereal/Demiurge
Type V = Demiurge/Time Lord
Type VI = High Lord
Type VII = Supreme Being
@Omeganian: If you like to stat some scifi creatures then be my guest I haven’t played Mass Effect yet but after reading about the Reapers I surely want to see those stats.
The Downstreamers are like the Lipika and/or the Supreme Being. You might even classify them as “Beyond the Beyond” with their ability to create new sets of multiverses with its own rules.
@UK: Here’s an expanded Kardashev Scale - Link
I came up with a scale that combines the IH’s Divine Heirarchy, Halo’s Tech Achievement Tiers and the tech levels at orbitalvector.com. The Xeelee would be Demiurge level Worldbuilders, which is tech level 24-30. If non-Epic Industrial Age is lvl 10, then the Epic Atomic-Age/Space-Age is lvl 11-13, the Space-Age/Space-Faring Immortals is lvl 14-17 (about the same as the Eclipse Phase setting, which has tech that effectively makes you immortal). The first singularity is the transition from Transhuman Immortals to Posthuman Sidereal Worldbuilders lvl 18-23 (a lvl 18 civ can build a megastation, balloon world, or a Forerunner Halo). The Omega Point is the transition from Demiurge to Time Lord Transsentients at lvl 30-31.
Roughly in the Kardashev Scale, this would be:
Type 0-I = Non-Epic/Epic
Type II = Epic/Immortal
Type III = Immortal/Sidereal
Type IV = Sidereal/Demiurge
Type V = Demiurge/Time Lord
Type VI = High Lord
Type VII = Supreme Being
@Omeganian: If you like to stat some scifi creatures then be my guest
I haven’t played Mass Effect yet but after reading about the Reapers I surely want to see those stats.
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Upper_Krust
Hero
Omeganian said:
Well I already have stats for that in 3E...they are in the Epic bestiary.
In 4E, the details work differently, in that 1 hit point at Level 1 doesn't mean the same thing as 1 hit point at Level 30.
So a kiloton Level effect may (and I'm just hypothesizing at this juncture - though I will work it out soon) only end up dealing about 10d10 damage, but it will probably have a secondary effect of auto killing* beings below a certain level (or more specifically, of a certain tier).
*Or probably having a damage multiplier of x10 or more which would effectively do the same thing.
Mega-scale kicks in about Level 32, in the last edition Orcus was able to withstand a small yield nuke, so I see no reason to change that. I'd say the most powerful attacks of Legendary Tier monsters/characters would be akin to low yield Atomic Weapons.
Godzilla (to use an example) is about a Solo Level 35 soldier, his breath weapon probably borders on that level of destruction.
Giga-scale kicks in at Level 40, I think thats where beings individual attacks will be on a par with probably Megaton level events, with the most powerful attacks representing up to about a teraton of tnt.
Something like meteors that wipe out the dinosaurs style damage in and around Level 48.
Tera-scale kicks in about Level 48, at this juncture I think the most powerful attacks will approach the power needed to blow up a planet.
Death Star super-laser type attacks I would peg in and around about Level 55.
The Peta-scale (56-63), will be where attacks start mimicking supernovae and other celestial events up to about galaxy level catastrophes.
The Exa-scale (64-71) , will have galactic level destruction commonplace up to about universal oblivion.
The Zotta-scale (72-79), will have universal level at-will destruction, with multi-versal catastrophe's as rechargers.
The Yotta-scale (80+), should start to get silly.
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