IH: Sci-Fi Edition

[paradox42]

Well I already have stats for that in 3E...they are in the Epic bestiary.

I should note here that those stats don't work for every campaign. Different DMs will interpret the translation of a kiloton-level energy blast differently. As you're aware, I never used your recommendations for planetary hit points or the like, instead allowing for creatures and objects with literally billions of hit points. By the same token, my own stats for a Nuke spell (worked out years before I ever saw mention of an "Immortal's Handbook" I should mention in fairness) were perfectly capable of annihilating a typical D&D fantasy city while still allowing for supremely powerful defenses to permit survival.

That said, a mere kiloton blast isn't actually all that impressive; in fact the Hiroshima bomb was estimated to have yielded 13 kilotons and that was only the second atomic bomb detonated in the history of humankind. The first, the one detonated at Trinity to prove the Manhattan Project had yielded a usable weapon, was based on plutonium rather than Uranium-235 and had a yield of 20 kilotons (the bomb dropped on Nagasaki was also plutonium).

I've estimated based on radii of destruction that the Nuke spell in my game (which has a minimum caster level of 30, and bases its stats on caster level) has a minimum yield of about 10 megatons. I didn't put in force-based effects or out-and-out disintegration like UK's version; however, I do consider both Force damage and the damage dealt by a Disintegration spell to be "Advanced energy" types in my game, and the Nuke spell deals another type called Plasma damage- so by comparison with core-rules 3.X it probably works out similarly. The stated effects of a Nuke spell are three radii of destructive power: an inner ring (out to 1/4 mile per caster level), a middle ring (out to 1/2 mile per caster level), and an outer ring (out to 3/4 mile per caster level). The inner ring deals 10d6 Plasma damage per caster level to everything in it, and allows no save to reduce damage; the middle ring deals 10d6 Fire damage per caster level instead but allows a Reflex save for half (stating also, however, that Evasion and other such abilities are ignored), and the outer ring just has tornado-force winds within it for 2d4 rounds. Not as realistic, I admit, but easy to use in game (and besides: it's magic!).

Glancing at the stats given for Orcus in Hordes of the Abyss, I'd estimate that he could survive a hypothetical Nuke cast at up to level 15, if the dice rolled really low; this would be roughly equivalent to a 1-megaton blast going by radii of destruction. Of course, that version of Orcus is usually scoffed at as being weak by people with a taste for Epic games, so YMMV.

 

[Omeganian]

Well I already have stats for that in 3E...they are in the Epic bestiary.

I said that I don't mean the effects on someone standing nearby - I'm talking about someone getting DIRECTLY hit with that much KINETIC energy - especially taking into account that, energy - wise, it's a much more efficient way of causing damage than heat is.

 

[S'mon]

My Ea campaign's Eldren (who U_K mentions above) weren't necessarily post-singularity. They were still tied to their physical bodies, which lasted around 20,000 years. On death their minds would be transferred to a new body, much like the machine in 'Zardoz'. They came originally from a possible Earth future history around 120,000 years from now, when Earth-stock humans had colonised numerous alternate dimensions. One of these, the Eldren home dimension, was noted for high Physical and Magical factors. The Eldren Thrin encountered (Xira, Doomstar et al) were from the ruling house (Zzroi); overthrown in a rebellion they travelled to Ea about 3 million years ago, when the planet was almost uninhabited following a major meteor strike, and did much to create modern life conditions there before Doomstar initiated the Eldren Civil War.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Post-singularity cultures could be almost anywhere on the Immortals' Handbook scale... I'd say...

Immortal level - the Children of the Lens from E. E. Smith's Lensman series, individually, are probably low-Immortal level; the ascended beings/"Starchild" from 2001: A Space Odyssey are probably high-Immortal, Intermediate or Greater, but they don't seem sufficiently transcendent (of time, etc.) to be Sidereal; the ascended races in James Finn Garner's League of Peoples books (Expendable is the first; a lot of the ascended stuff is in, appropriately, Ascending) pretty much span the Immortal spectrum of power;

Sidereal level - the Arisians and Eddorians from E. E. Smith's Lensman series, at least when united into 'fusions', and the Children of the Lens when working together, are securely Sidereal level. The Xeelee and Photino Birds are up here too.

The civilization from Fritz Leiber's The Wanderer is probably at Sidereal-power-level technology at least, as the titular Wanderer, while no more than a pirate ship, is an entire hyperdrive-equipped planet.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

As for the Kardashev scale article on the website; is it the equivalent for an entire civilization, or a being from that civilization? So is a Greater Deity a match for an entire Kardashev Class I civilization, or is every inhabitant of such a civilization the equivalent of a Greater Deity?


(Also, a nitpick; Modern Earth is about a Kardashev 0.7, not a 0.5. Wikipedia says 0.72.)

Well I already have stats for that in 3E...they are in the Epic bestiary.

In 4E, the details work differently, in that 1 hit point at Level 1 doesn't mean the same thing as 1 hit point at Level 30.

So a kiloton Level effect may (and I'm just hypothesizing at this juncture - though I will work it out soon) only end up dealing about 10d10 damage, but it will probably have a secondary effect of auto killing* beings below a certain level (or more specifically, of a certain tier).

*Or probably having a damage multiplier of x10 or more which would effectively do the same thing.

Mega-scale kicks in about Level 32, in the last edition Orcus was able to withstand a small yield nuke, so I see no reason to change that. I'd say the most powerful attacks of Legendary Tier monsters/characters would be akin to low yield Atomic Weapons.

Godzilla (to use an example) is about a Solo Level 35 soldier, his breath weapon probably borders on that level of destruction.

Giga-scale kicks in at Level 40, I think thats where beings individual attacks will be on a par with probably Megaton level events, with the most powerful attacks representing up to about a teraton of tnt.

Something like meteors that wipe out the dinosaurs style damage in and around Level 48.

Tera-scale kicks in about Level 48, at this juncture I think the most powerful attacks will approach the power needed to blow up a planet.

Death Star super-laser type attacks I would peg in and around about Level 55.

The Peta-scale (56-63), will be where attacks start mimicking supernovae and other celestial events up to about galaxy level catastrophes.

The Exa-scale (64-71) , will have galactic level destruction commonplace up to about universal oblivion.

The Zotta-scale (72-79), will have universal level at-will destruction, with multi-versal catastrophe's as rechargers.

The Yotta-scale (80+), should start to get silly.

 

[Chosen01]

For me with scifi, it’s by civilization, what they could do collectively with their technology. It gets tricky with ascended beings, where they’re more magical than technological, their abilities coming from personal power instead of their tech. That’s what I like about the Xeelee and the Downstreamers, they don’t just hand-wave and things happen, what they can do are mostly explained through their technology.

I also tend to adjust the IH hierarchy since the usual scifi universe doesn’t have the same dimensions as the IH (they normally can only manipulate space and time) and they don’t have planes and layers.

Edit: I just realized that a Sidereal-level civilization would at least need to have the ability to build Dyson Spheres. Hmm, do I follow my custom scale or Kardashev's...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy paradox42 mate!

I should note here that those stats don't work for every campaign. Different DMs will interpret the translation of a kiloton-level energy blast differently.

I didn't pluck those stats out of the ether, they were derived from scaling up weaponry from grenade level power within d20 modern.

So while I agree the stats won't be for everybody, they are about as consistently balanced as I could envision at the time of their creation.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I said that I don't mean the effects on someone standing nearby - I'm talking about someone getting DIRECTLY hit with that much KINETIC energy - especially taking into account that, energy - wise, it's a much more efficient way of causing damage than heat is.

Well, energy is still energy. But I think to address your comments directly I usually take a leaf out of comic books in this regard. Wherein when individual punches thrown would have megaton level impact (to use an example), then the secondary effects are negligable, assuming the target absorbs the blow in the first place. If the target cannot absorb the impact, then we would convey the remaining energy to the surroundings (craters, explosions and so forth).

So in D&D terms, as long as the target has hit points enough to absorb the attack, there won't be any obvious peripheral damage. However, when the attack deals more damage than the target has hit points (and I would discount negative hit points from counting towards this) then its treated as per an attack upon the 'scenery'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

As for the Kardashev scale article on the website; is it the equivalent for an entire civilization, or a being from that civilization? So is a Greater Deity a match for an entire Kardashev Class I civilization, or is every inhabitant of such a civilization the equivalent of a Greater Deity?

In my opinion, the former. A single Elder One would be able to conquer the Earth.

Godzilla is effectively a Lesser God and look how he messes up whole cities.

(Also, a nitpick; Modern Earth is about a Kardashev 0.7, not a 0.5. Wikipedia says 0.72.)

Yes, the assigned rows were correct via progress levels (d20 modern/future) but not to the Kardashev Scale.

 

[Chosen01]

I want to set-up my scifi setting where an Elder One-equivalent civilization would have the tech to build and destroy (or at least do an extinction-level event to) a planet. By this setting, the civ needs to be an Old One equivalent to have stellar-scale structures and weaponry. I’m now thinking of bumping-up Elder One to sub-galactic level so it fits better with the Kardashev Scale.