Illusionary floor pit trap, what's the saving throw?

[sullivan]

I'm talking about a "trap" that has no moving mechanical parts. Something in the that general pit trap class such as a bridge missing part of that deck that is "completed" with an illusionary section in the middle. The intended victim is walking along not suspecting anything, no Detect Magic up, no True Seeing. So what, if any saving throw do they get when they walk into the section of ground that isn't there? A Will save vs. the DC of the spell? They aren't interacting with it until they are through it, or are they? Or do they get some sort of Reflex save? I have Song & Silence, but all their example pit traps that i can find are mechanical based.

 

[Mordane76]

As this seems to simply be an application of the illusory wall spell, the following should answer this question:

Illusory Wall
Illusion (Figment)
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates the illusion of a wall, floor, ceiling, or similar surface. It appears absolutely real when viewed, but physical objects can pass through it without difficulty. When the spell is used to hide pits, traps, or normal doors, any detection abilities that do not require sight work normally. Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear.

If the creature possesses an ability to sense illusions or objects (or the lack thereof), then it can detect the trap pretty much fail-safe. If not, then it does not receive any sort of save until it interacts. By the RAW, they really shouldn't receive a save. The best thing I can find is in the Climb skill text:

Catching Yourself When Falling: It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).

Catching a Falling Character While Climbing: If someone climbing above you or adjacent to you falls, you can attempt to catch the falling character if he or she is within your reach. Doing so requires a successful melee touch attack against the falling character (though he or she can voluntarily forego any Dexterity bonus to AC if desired). If you hit, you must immediately attempt a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 10). Success indicates that you catch the falling character, but his or her total weight, including equipment, cannot exceed your heavy load limit or you automatically fall. If you fail your Climb check by 4 or less, you fail to stop the character’s fall but don’t lose your grip on the wall. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to stop the character’s fall and begin falling as well.

In all fairness, grabbing the lip of the pit probably counts as either "an uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins" (DC 20), or as either "a rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall" or "an overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds" (both DC 25). So... it's POSSIBLE to do it... but probably very unlikely. If you use this, you can also apply the modifiers for Climb, like if the pit is narrow enough to brace themselves against the opposite side, you could cut them a break on the DC (-10), or if they have a corner they can grab you can also cut them a small break (-5).

 

[sullivan]

As this seems to simply be an application of the illusory wall spell, the following should answer this question:

Blah, blah, blah....

If the creature possesses an ability to sense illusions or objects (or the lack thereof), then it can detect the trap pretty much fail-safe. If not, then it does not receive any sort of save until it interacts. By the RAW, they really shouldn't receive a save.

Yah, that is basically what i was thinking. I saw that spell text too, it mirrors the PHB explanation of general saves vs. illusion spells. But still it is somewhat inconclusive in that it doesn't mention if the "interaction" happens before or after you are falling. Don't get me wrong, I WANT there to be no save or the toughest possible save senario (this is as a PC Illusionist). There is just a conflicting interest that I want to be fair, and this seems to really exploit the AWESOME ALL-INSPIRING POWER of my Illusionist (complete with Spell Focus:Illusions). I'm just examing possibilities before developing and bringing the plan to the GM (a rookie GM BTW).

The Climb check is a good suggestion though to give at least a glimmer of [false] hope. So I'll have to make sure I set up a smooth surface with a negative slope. *evil grin*

 

[Mordane76]

As a continuation - with proper set up, if this spell were used on a suspension-style bridge to make a false plank, and the plank following the "pit" were specifically weakened, you could make it nearly impossible to make the Climb check by simply weakening the board in question so that it couldn't hold more than maybe 50-100 lbs, because even if they did manage to grab the board on their way down, it would snap under their weight. There are plenty of ways to skew this scenario in your favor... make the "bridge" out of ice (so it's always slippery), or make sure to keep it slick with dripping water. However, the water might allow someone to see through the illusion, as it would interact with the illusion in such a way that someone could notice water flowing 'through' the bridge.

The easiest way, IMO, to overcome this scenario is a bag of sand, dirt, or some similar small, grainy material, but that would require that someone was somehow aware that a section of the bridge would be missing. If you knew to be careful for such a trap, while you couldn't see through the illusion initially, tossing out sand would indicate what part of the bridge isn't really there. This could be a good idea for the caster himself or his trusted minions, so that they don't forget the placement of the trap.

 

[Particle_Man]

hmmm...I am a little kinder. No will save to detect illusion, but a reflex save to avoid the pit (when the first foot goes through, and change to catch your balance on your remaining foot still planted on terra firma).

 

[sullivan]

hmmm...I am a little kinder. No will save to detect illusion, but a reflex save to avoid the pit (when the first foot goes through, and change to catch your balance on your remaining foot still planted on terra firma).

But a DC of what? And what precedence would there be for this? Sure it sounds like a Reflex, but this is a mind affecting spell. There are lots of spells you could argue where the saving throw could go another way (especially between Will and Fortitude). But altering the saving throw from the effects of a mind influencing spell to a reflex save seems...like a bad idea.

 

[Darkness]

what precedence would there be for this?

Covered pit traps (DMG, p.69). If you fail to notice one, you get a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling in it unless you were running or moving recklessly.

 

[sullivan]

Covered pit traps (DMG, p.69). If you fail to notice one, you get a DC 20 Reflex save to avoid falling in it unless you were running or moving recklessly.

However that has material over the pit, material that has some resistance in it and that you can push off of, if ever-so-slightly. It also gives feedback of sponginess as you get a slight amout of backpressure and then give as opposed to no fixed point at which you don't feel the floor when covered with an illusion.

 

[Darkness]

However that has material over the pit, material that has some resistance in it and that you can push off of, if ever-so-slightly. It also gives feedback of sponginess as you get a slight amout of backpressure and then give

Right, primitive pit traps. But not well-constructed mechanical ones.

I used the wrong example. My bad. What I was thinking of is the wide-mouth pit trap, not the well-camouflaged pit trap. The wide-mouth one has a Reflex save DC of 25, not 20.

 

[sullivan]

But they are still mechanical, and there is still that momment of contact. Plus there is that problem that your are changing a saving throw for a spell, that the mind influencing portion of it is taken out of play.

Actually looking back though my post I have another thought. At the moment that their foot is falling into the hole they get a Will saving throw. Failure means they don't believe their foot could be going through. If they make the saving throw they get the DC 20/DC 25 Reflex as per normal pit trap. Failure means....hmmm, they take a header and get a chance to Climb check at those horrific Surface+20 DCs once the Illusion is obvious to them.

That saving throw might also be explained as noticing small pebbles passing into the illusion, dust swirling incorrectly, etc. as you get close to the illusion. Thus that meets the "interaction" requirement to get a saving throw.

EDIT: Actually that could also take away the extra DC 20/DC 25 check. So failure means Climb check (if they ask for it) and success means they notice something isn't right and catch themselves before going through.