I'm annoyed at archers.

[ConcreteBuddha]

Okay, I've seen them from both sides of the DM/player fence, in multiple games. I've used concealment, spells, sundering, grappling, disarm, cover and every other archer-counter in the book.

I still think they are too powerful. And this is coming from a Munchkin (me).

As an example: in the game I'm in right now, we're L7. We've got two melee types and two archer types. They are as follows:


Melee:
human L7 fighter TWF bastard sword twink
lizardfolk L5 barbarian 27 AC, long sword/shield twink

Archer:
elven L4 fighter L3 rogue archer twink
elven L7 cleric of elf domain archer twink


The archers do the most damage, hands down. Sure, their AC is bunk, but who cares? Most baddies die before they're in melee combat. Even then, they've got Mithril chain shirts and a 20+ dexterity. I'm dreading what will happen as soon as the F/R archer goes OOBI, PA, AA, or whatever other twinked out archer madness there is.

With a high dex, stacking GMW arrows, a magic bow, a high str, bracers of archery and PBS, RS, PS, WF, and WS, these archer-freaks dominate the game. They take a full attack every round, while it takes the melee guys some time to get in position.
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Anyway, please don't explain counters to archers to me. I know that a bow has 5 hardness and 2 hps. I know that they don't threaten. I know that Warp Wood is a godsend.


I'm just annoyed that archery in DnD is not a support role. I dislike that melee types are constantly bombarded with Improved Grab and Reach and threatening and disarms and what have you while being constantly outshined in damage output by the bow dudes. That is kinda cheesy.

I'd like it if the amount of damage you deal was proportional to the amount of damage you received. I'd like it if the guys on the front lines with a high Strength could do comparable damage to the twinky goodness of using a bow, but that is a fat chance.


Maybe I should join the crowd and use a bow. My Lizardfolk barbarian would then womp those pansy elves.
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P.S And what ********** thought up Ranged Power Attack? The Peerless Archer can ******* my left **********!




*grin*

 

[James McMurray]

Well, there isa reason that swords aren't the modern-day weapon of choice: ranged combat is much safer for the participant.

However, if you're truly irked about it, simply house rule that Magic Bows and arrows don't stack. Maybe have bows add tohit and arrows to damage (and overcoming DR).

 

[Grog]

Actually, I think the most unbalancing thing about archers is the fact that you can GMW 50 arrows at a time. The next time I run a campaign, I'll probably change GMW so it doesn't work on arrows. That way, the only way an archer can get the attack and damage bonuses from magic bows and arrows to stack is to use magic arrows - which are a limited resource the DM can control.

 

[mkletch]

I did the archer thing, and there is nothing more frightening than improved grab plus reach. If you friends get grabbed, you might hit them with your shots. If you get it, well, suffice it to say that it gets really ugly.

The other option is to set adventures in catacombs or other places where a standard move or partial charge will set the melee fighters up pretty well.

As for archers in general, spellcasters are 5x worse. WHat an archer can do in ten rounds, a wizard or cleric can do in one or two.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

Actually, I think the most unbalancing thing about archers is the fact that you can GMW 50 arrows at a time. The next time I run a campaign, I'll probably change GMW so it doesn't work on arrows. That way, the only way an archer can get the attack and damage bonuses from magic bows and arrows to stack is to use magic arrows - which are a limited resource the DM can control.

Then archers are completely useless. Either you need AA, or you need GMW. If there are no magic arrows, the DR is 'invulnerability to archers'.

I would not allow GMW to pass a +10 total modifier on the arrows, though some do. Look at it this way. If your players don't go through 50 arrows in 8 hours, then you are not pressing them hard enough. "Oh, I just shot my last arrow. Let's rest." Then the hordes of hell fall upon them 4 hours into resting. GMW is a crutch, and a weak one at that.

Another option is to allow the arrow enhancement to only affect damage, and the bow enhancement to only affect attack, if you're freaked by the stacking bow and ammunition.

-Fletch!

 

[bret]

Amusing.

A friend of mine was recently complaining about how his group suffered because they lacked a tank in the group. All the fighter types were archers, with no one to protect them. They frequently got torn to pieces.

I haven't seen an archer type in their full gory, so I'm not sure just how bad it can get. I do know that a melee fighter can output a lot of damage in a full attack, but it is relatively easy to prevent them from getting that full attack.

I have seen archer types get into a melee situation. When I've seen this, it usually involved the archer getting badly chewed up.

 

[gfunk]

I know you said you didn't want counters, but I couldn't resist offering one. Wind wall.

Stops all bolts and arrows, even +5 arrows of human slaying fired from a +5 Mighty (Str 18) Composite Long Bow of Unerring Accuracy.

If the PCs in your campaign face powerful foes or, are themsleves powerful, future enemies would prepare accordingly.

 

[Deadguy]

I've often felt that they fluffed the handling of magical missile weapons. I really feel they should've gone the path mentioned by James McMurray above: the launcher is ensorcelled only for attack enhancements, and the missiles themselves for damage. Of course, to be fair, since they get only half the nromal bonus (either attack or damage, not attack and damage), they should cost only half the normal price to create. They sort've acknowledged the problem, in that there is the rule about overcoming DR, but I suspect that it was really for legacy reasons that they didn't rationalise the design fully.

It always seems strange that when dealing with really high AC targets the best approach isn't to get up close and pound your foe, but rather to stand off and snipe with a GMW +5 bow and GMW +5 arrows.

 

[hong]

I haven't seen an archer type in their full gory, so I'm not sure just how bad it can get.

Heh. Just two days ago I posted about how my 14th level archer was dealing 100+ points per round, for three rounds, to a black dragon. Admittedly this was a custom PrC (which I've since toned down), but the usual ones are no doubt just as bad.

I have seen archer types get into a melee situation. When I've seen this, it usually involved the archer getting badly chewed up.

This is the problem, though. While having someone to stop the monsters getting to the archer is essential for the archer's survival, it's too often a thankless task. The melee guys get torn to pieces, while the archer gets the kill. It's the Poor Bloody Infantry thing all over again.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What I want to know is what a "TWF Bastard Sword Twink" is. Unless he's got a Sunblade for his off hand, TWF with two bastard swords is silly. The character could either spend the EWP on Double Sword and power attack (doing more damage and being harder to disarm/sunder) or use twin shortswords (power attacking for 2, he gets the same average damage) and have a free feat. If the shortsword guy gets a Sunblade, he can use it too. . . .

If he's trying to wield two bastard swords, it's no wonder the archers are outdamaging him.

As for the lizardman barbarian, longsword/shield is the AC maximizing combo not the damage maximizing one (unless he's TWF and using Shield Expert).

If a melee character wants to outdamage a maxed out archer, s/he should focus on maximizing damage--something like Multidexterity/multiattack with bastard sword/spiked shield/armor spikes or Ambidex/TWF with Greatsword and armor spikes. As much as Arcane Archer and OoBI can get nasty, the melee type has similar options--Foe Hunter, Tribal Protector, Frenzied Beserker, Devoted Defender, etc. If you want to blow them out of the water in terms of damage dealing, a combination of those is the route to go.

And you're still able to attack when the enemy drops an Obscuring Mist or darkness spell. . . . .