Imagine there was another Earthlike planet in our system

[Umbran]

So you have a greenhouse, possibly pressurized and radiation shielded (or enhanced) which is completely barren as no plants from earth would grow there. Air is the least of ones problems on foreign planets.

Air is the least of your problems, yes. But your statement that "no plants from Earth would grow there" is overstated. Earth has a lot of plants with only basic requirements - given them O2, CO2, sunlight, and basic minerals, and they're good to go.

This is much the basis for the science of hydroponics - we are continuously surprised at how well plants can do in environments not designed for them.

 

[Jdvn1]

Knowledge about their history would give us some knowledge about them, but nothing can make us understand them.

You can't know that for sure. We have people that have been studying lots of different creatures and cultures for a long time - we learn more all the time. There are some human cultures that are still being studied that we don't fully understand and people are even studying modern culture that isn't fully understood by 'outsiders' - that doesn't mean they don't cohabitate the same space peacefully, though.

Knowing that there's a sentient species out there at all means that there will be people who will want to learn about them and try to understand them - we may never understand them fully, but we can do so enough to coexist peacefully.

I don't understand why you apparently think it's impossible. I think most people would say that more difficult things have been accomplished.

We can only approximate what they might do or not and considering the only communication is over radio even with knowledge of their culture it would be very vague.
And transferring scientists? How? They would die as soon as their supplies run out. Completely unfeasible.

So you have a greenhouse, possibly pressurized and radiation shielded (or enhanced) which is completely barren as no plants from earth would grow there. Air is the least of ones problems on foreign planets.

Are you kidding me? That would be totally easy to figure out - send a probe / send over some information as Umbran mentioned. There would be plenty of people excited to study Marian plantlife. We'll start growing a Martian biosphere or something and figure out suits that we can wear in that atmosphere and vice-versa.

Just like there are scientists willing to be sent to Mars now - pretty much live in a box on a barren wasteland - there will be scientists on both sides eager to be sent to learn with and work with another civilization... what an exciting experience! With communication, we'll figure out a way to make it work on each side.

 

[Derren]

given them O2, CO2, sunlight, and basic minerals, and they're good to go.

Assuming of course that the greenhouse also doesn't contain something which makes plants die (High amount other gases, high radiation, etc.). And even if you can grow earth plants in it, whats the point?

I don't understand why you apparently think it's impossible. I think most people would say that more difficult things have been accomplished.

No, it has not. Nothing of this sort has been done yet. We likely have more in common with dolphins than with any sentient lifeform from mars. And we certainly can't understand dolphins. We can guess, but that is all.

Are you kidding me? That would be totally easy to figure out - send a probe / send over some information as Umbran mentioned. There would be plenty of people excited to study Marian plantlife. We'll start growing a Martian biosphere or something and figure out suits that we can wear in that atmosphere and vice-versa.

Just like there are scientists willing to be sent to Mars now - pretty much live in a box on a barren wasteland - there will be scientists on both sides eager to be sent to learn with and work with another civilization... what an exciting experience! With communication, we'll figure out a way to make it work on each side.

Would people do it? Yes. But it would only cost resources for no effect at all except providing them with information with possible military application.
And growing alien plants is a little harder than just setting up a greenhouse.

 

[Jdvn1]

Assuming of course that the greenhouse also doesn't contain something which makes plants die (High amount other gases, high radiation, etc.). And even if you can grow earth plants in it, whats the point?

I thought we covered that. It's the basis for trade, potentially of valuable resources.

Further, if we can accomplish all of that (which is likely within our technological limitations) we've just traded science and information. Studying these foreign lifeforms could mean a host of new technologies we could use. And that's just one step that can lead to many more.

 

[Derren]

I thought we covered that. It's the basis for trade, potentially of valuable resources.

Trade? Really? We can't use their plants and they can't use ours. Whats there to trade? Unless some of their plants are some sort of organic miracle there is nothing valuable about them except being a expensive room decoration.

 

[Jdvn1]

Trade? Really? We can't use their plants and they can't use ours. Whats there to trade? Unless some of their plants are some sort of organic miracle there is nothing valuable about them except being a expensive room decoration.

If their plantlife really is that different, we can study how it's different and what biological processes it undergoes - those processes could be adapted for us on our planet. Further, if it's that different, it could create chemical compounds we don't often see - and be able to grow useful chemical compounds.

Further, if we can create a martian habitat, we can house martians. If we can house martians, we can trade scientists, and work together.

 

[Derren]

If their plantlife really is that different, we can study how it's different and what biological processes it undergoes - those processes could be adapted for us on our planet. Further, if it's that different, it could create chemical compounds we don't often see - and be able to grow useful chemical compounds.

Further, if we can create a martian habitat, we can house martians. If we can house martians, we can trade scientists, and work together.

1. Yes, plant life will be that different.
2. Adapting alien DNA and biological processes to earth organisms? Only in science fiction. When we manage to cross an eagle with seaweed we might start thinking about something like that, not before. So we are back to miracle plants.
3. Even when we manage to exchange people and somehow keep them alive, whats the point?

 

[Umbran]

You can't know that for sure. We have people that have been studying lots of different creatures and cultures for a long time - we learn more all the time. There are some human cultures that are still being studied that we don't fully understand and people are even studying modern culture that isn't fully understood by 'outsiders' - that doesn't mean they don't cohabitate the same space peacefully, though.

There is a great tendency to say, "We don't know everything, and that means we know nothing!" We should avoid this tendency. We don't know with 100% accuracy how the human mind works, but somehow, by and large, we get along. We don't have to know the alien mind down to umpteen decimal places to get along with them, either.

All we need to know to get along is that we aren't in conflict over some major required resource. Everything else is then negotiable.

Assuming of course that the greenhouse also doesn't contain something which makes plants die (High amount other gases, high radiation, etc.).

Aren't you the guy who just said the air (like, you know, gases) would be the least of our issues?

It would be really good if you used an example of something that was hard to detect - a high amount of *anything* (other gases, radiation, and such) is easy to detect, and thus fix. If you wanted to suggest that Martian soil might hold some thing rare and deadly and undetectable, you might have a point. But you better make sure it isn't something that will show up with a Geiger counter or simple chromatograph.

And even if you can grow earth plants in it, whats the point?

I believe the original point was to establish a way to have our scientists stay there (or, really, theirs here) for a prolonged period. Food production probably being the idea. Of course, we know lots of food crops from Earth that grow well by hydroponics - we don't need their dirt. Just some space.

 

[Jdvn1]

1. Yes, plant life will be that different.

Which you don't know for sure unless you test it. Remember we're talking about an earth-like planet - the extent of similarities is up to interpretation and can't be known. There might be no differences between our plant life, there might be a lot of differences, or it might be something in the middle.

2. Adapting alien DNA and biological processes to earth organisms? Only in science fiction. When we manage to cross an eagle with seaweed we might start thinking about something like that, not before.

Well, we can already cross plant DNA with other plant DNA. So, that's at least a step in the right direction. I think we can cross animal DNA with other animal DNA as well, but it's more expensive.

3. Even when we manage to exchange people and somehow keep them alive, whats the point?

This line of questioning essentially boils down to, "What's the point of expanding scientific knowledge?" I suppose if you want to ignore the human and economic benefits of expanding scientific and technological advances, that's your business.

 

[Derren]

There is a great tendency to say, "We don't know everything, and that means we know nothing!" We should avoid this tendency. We don't know with 100% accuracy how the human mind works, but somehow, by and large, we get along. We don't have to know the alien mind down to umpteen decimal places to get along with them, either.

All we need to know to get along is that we aren't in conflict over some major required resource. Everything else is then negotiable.

To use the dolphin example, we would have a much easier time to understand dolphins than any lifeform from mars and that even when we could observe them in person instead of talking over radio.
And no, we could not be sure if we would get along with them when we are not in conflict over resources.

Aren't you the guy who just said the air (like, you know, gases) would be the least of our issues?

The least, but not the only one. Gravity? Radiation?
Besides as I understood it you were saying that earth plants might grow in a mars greenhouse. What if mars has a lot more radiation than earth? I don't think our plants would do well in that case.

I believe the original point was to establish a way to have our scientists stay there (or, really, theirs here) for a prolonged period. Food production probably being the idea. Of course, we know lots of food crops from Earth that grow well by hydroponics - we don't need their dirt. Just some space.

So even if we manage to replicate the environment of mars, have seeds transferred which also manage to "digest" the minerals found on earth and build up a storage of martian food, there is still the question of the why? There wouldn't really be an advantage economically to exchange people (who would be confined for the rest of their lives (and the likelihood is great that it will be short) to a greenhouse except for satisfy some peoples curiosity and to acquire some sample for a weapon program (not that a few corpses would allow you to create bioweapons but you could test chemicals).

Which you don't know for sure unless you test it. Remember we're talking about an earth-like planet - the extent of similarities is up to interpretation and can't be known. There might be no differences between our plant life, there might be a lot of differences, or it might be something in the middle.

Well, we can already cross plant DNA with other plant DNA. So, that's at least a step in the right direction. I think we can cross animal DNA with other animal DNA as well, but it's more expensive.

To use my previous example, billions of years ago the eagle and seaweed had a common ancestor. Mars and earth plants would not. So unless you can combine an eagle with seaweed or subscribe to a "earth was seeded from space and mars, too" theory you don't even need to think about combining alien with terrestrial plants.

This line of questioning essentially boils down to, "What's the point of expanding scientific knowledge?" I suppose if you want to ignore the human and economic benefits of expanding scientific and technological advances, that's your business.

What scientific knowledge is expanded by building a greenhouse?