Immediate Reaction Now?

[Steel_Wind]

The Little Raven:

The Little Raven said:

That's a reaction. It says it explicitly in the description. They move, THEN you let your ally move.

I agree it says a reaction. But our agreement ends there.

I am not aware of any official ruling on this matter ever having been given - but I'll ask about it and let you know.

While what you say is one possible interpretation of the talent, it not the only one. I would point out that it does not explicitly say what you suggest; it says, in my view, just the opposite. It says movING, referring to a current action then in progress.

Were it to say what you say it means, it would more logically state in describing the talent, "immediately after a foe has movED".

Moreover, my interpretation is highlighted by the description of the very talent itself: ANTICIPATE.

By definition, "Anticipation" is making use of a forward looking prediction, not a backward looking assessment of a thing that has already occurred. You see them moving, you anticipate where they will end up before their move is complete - and you react immediately to compensate before the foe's move is complete.

 

[MarkB]

I disagree that the rules are very clear. Yes they say that you cannot normally enter an enemies square. They even define an enemy as "a creature or creatures that aren't your ally" (PHB 57), but they do not define what an "ally" is (other than you are not your own ally).

PH1, page 57. Allies are your team-mates. You don't get to treat an enemy as an ally simply because it's suddenly convenient to do so.

Forced movement is already a powerful option, and becomes both too powerful and too unmanageable if creatures get to decide on a case-by-case basis whether they're going to let someone else past or not. The rules are simple: You do get to pass through an ally's space, and don't get to pass through an enemy's space unless you're two size categories bigger or smaller than them.

 

[Steel_Wind]

PH1, page 57. Allies are your team-mates. You don't get to treat an enemy as an ally simply because it's suddenly convenient to do so.

Oh? I'm not so sure that's as clear as you make it out to be.

Forced movement is already a powerful option, and becomes both too powerful and too unmanageable if creatures get to decide on a case-by-case basis whether they're going to let someone else past or not. The rules are simple: You do get to pass through an ally's space, and don't get to pass through an enemy's space unless you're two size categories bigger or smaller than them.

I'm not so sure this is as clear as you would like.

The text in Star Wars: SE for the movement rules (upon which 4E's movement rules are based) says:

"You can move through a square occupied by any chracter, creature, or droid that does not consider you an enemy."

The point of "considering one an enemy" for this purpose is that it is a subjective choice made by the creature you are trying to move through. They can choose to let you in, or not, as they decide. This also allows for mind dominating effects in play. So perhaps it does justifiy it , even on a case-by-case basis.

The text in the 4E PHB is:

You can move through a square occupied by an ally .

But the 4E PHB doesn't stop there, it goes on:

Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you.

Now, what "normally" means is open to some interpretation, in my view. Could it mean the subjective choice of the creature you are trying to move through? Answer: Maybe.

Pathfinder follows similar rules, treating the matter by way of the use of terms "friendly" or "opponent".

In all cases, it is arguable that it is the subjective treatment of the creature/character you are trying to move through which choose to treat you as enemy/ally/friendly, in order to permit you to move by or not.

Presumably, in every case, this is done by the critter/character choosing to get out of the way, or not, as the case may be.

I admit that your interpretation may well be correct, but I don't see any must about it.

 

[Woas]

What was the initiative order? If you were coming up next, or even you were down the initiative list, so long as you moved again before the monster had a turn could you just invoke the 'don't sweat it' clause since your character and the one pushing the monster could just delay/swap to the point where you could have shifted a square before the monster got pushed?

 

[blargney the second]

I think you could come up with some interesting rulings for a case like that:

1) Let the PC who was in the way drop prone (effectively becoming a size smaller) and get trampled for a little bit of p.42 damage.

2) The PC allows the monster pass through his square, but the monster gets to make an OA against him as it claws frantically for something to hold onto. (Optional extension: If the monster hits successfully, it reduces the push by 1 square, and a crit negates the push altogether.)


Basically, let the players get what they want (monster in fire) at a cost (pain!). It's cool, cinematic, and will make the fight end faster one way or another.
-blarg

 

[TarionzCousin]

What was the initiative order? If you were coming up next, or even you were down the initiative list, so long as you moved again before the monster had a turn could you just invoke the 'don't sweat it' clause since your character and the one pushing the monster could just delay/swap to the point where you could have shifted a square before the monster got pushed?

We should have coordinated, but we didn't. In this group, once you declare your action, it takes place. The player pushing the Large Boneclaw assumed it would squeeze past. It didn't.

The DM has suffered the same effects, such as the time he pushed my avenger and the dwarf off the bridge via Bull Rush only to learn that pushing a dwarf "one square" doesn't do much. Of course, my avenger had already fallen one hundred feet.

 

[Kingreaper]

If someone wanted to let a monster through their space, I'd probably let them.

But the monster would get to attack them. If you start treating a monster as an ally, and letting it get RIGHT NEXT TO YOU, without even trying to hit it... it gets to hit you.

No question on that one in my mind. You can't just let an enemy into your space without giving them a chance to hit you.


By RAW: you can't declare a monster to be an ally, and expect them to agree to it. So, you can't let them through your space, because they won't agree to be your ally.

 

[karlindel]

Originally posted by Steel_Wind
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB
PH1, page 57. Allies are your team-mates. You don't get to treat an enemy as an ally simply because it's suddenly convenient to do so.

Oh? I'm not so sure that's as clear as you make it out to be.

Although there are corner cases that can cause issues (former enemies that become allies, NPCs who were allies that betray you in the middle of the fight, etc.), within the context of this discussion I think it is clear from a rules standpoint that the PC cannot simply decide as a free action that the monster is an ally so that the monster can be forced past them.

There are powers which grant bonuses which an enemy would consider detrimental. For example, there is an Artificer power that allows you to slide your allies. If you can designate your opponents as your allies, that power becomes significantly more powerful, and I think it is highly unlikely that the designers intended that result.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Is there anything in 3E or 4E that allows a PC to make an immediate reaction as an interrupt?

Example: in a 4E game, the wizard thunderwaved the monster toward the wall of flame. But the monster was large and didn't squeeze past another PC who was in the way. With an immediate interrupt, the PC in the way could have moved out of the way instantly--allowing the monster to burn in flames as it so richly deserved.

In my opinion, this is the sort of thing one could spend an action point to do. Alternately, a PC could sacrifice his next action to do something like this. His choice of actions would be limited, though.

Thoughts? Houserules? Monkeys?

I'd probably let the PC move out the way by using an immediate interrupt to move once square and fall prone. This would simulate them diving out of the way.

Yes, by RAW the PC wouldn't be able to move out of the way, and the monster couldn't be pushed through the PCs space. However, I feel the setback created by making the dive a move (potentially resulting in OAs) and having the diving PC end up prone is a fair trade off for letting the wizard do his push cheese. It's "balanced" in that both sides experience complications.

I'd be willing to expand this to a general "Hit the Dirt" action where, as an immediate interrupt, the PC moves one square and falls prone. So they may dodge a ranged attack or escape an area of effect, in addition to getting out of a pushed monster's way.

 

[Dausuul]

The way I see it, in any interaction between two combatants, one of them must decide whether they are "allies" for that interaction. There's not a hard and fast rule for who makes the decision; but in most cases, you can look at it and see what the intended behavior is.

• Healing spell that benefits all allies: The caster of the spell decides who's an "ally," not the potential recipients. Otherwise everyone would decide to be an ally and they'd all be healed.
• Spell that enables the caster to slide an ally: The recipient of the spell decides whether they're an ally or not. Otherwise this could be used on enemies and would become much more powerful.

Now, looking at this specific example: You're allowed to move through an ally's square. Who decides whether you're allied with the person in the square? Clearly, the intended behavior is that the person in the square makes that choice; otherwise, you could move through anybody's square.

Therefore, the PC should be able to step aside and let the enemy past. Although I suppose you could argue that alliances must be mutual--unless both parties agree to be allies, they're not allies.