Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun mate!

I don't think it would work... It is near enough at the very first levels, but from level 4 to level 19 it is quite far from the actual value. Level 20 is quite near from the actual valour, but from level 21 upwards, it is less than what I thought, which already seems to be too low.

I would agree that it does not totally correlate with the Core Rules on Wealth (but everyone already agrees that those figures are seemingly arbitrary) - but I think it is a workable system; and very simple to incorporate, not requiring a lengthy table.

Seemingly the NPC Wealth Tables are (approx.) -5 levels behind their PC counterparts.

I am interested in learning more about the formula devised by CRGreathouse though.

See this thread for calculations by people who are more at ease with numbers than I am...

I saw the thread - and thanks for the advert therein mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there! I have another question (yet again! ) :

Sure no problem mate!

How will the change in CR calculation modify the XP table?

It doesn't.

Let's take an example to explain the question, it will be easier :

Okay.

With the current system, a party of level 40 characters defeats a CR 40 monster. They gain 12,000 XP (300*40 ; 300*level being the amount of XP you gain for defeating a monster with a CR equal to your level).

Yes. With you so far.

With your system, a monster that has a CR 40 will have a lower CR, but will still be as dangerous for a group of level 40 characters, but if the XP table remains as it is, the characters will gain less XP since the monster's CR is lower than the party average level...

Okay I see where your going wrong.

XP is not calculated with monster level/CR but rather the difference between the party and the monster.

Actual Levels
1-20th_______CR = +1/1 Level
21-40th______CR = +1/2 Levels
41-80th______CR = +1/4 Levels
81-160th_____CR = +1/8 Levels
161-320th____CR = +1/16 Levels

Examples
30th-level character = CR25
40th-level character = CR30
60th-level character = CR35
80th-level character = CR40
160th-level character = CR50
320th-level character = CR60

eg.
A 40th-level party are now CR30
A (formerly CR40) monster is now CR30

The difference in CR is +/-0 therefore XP is 300x40 (Level)

Now since encounters are only recommended at between 8 below or 8 above the party average CR, use this following table to calculate XP if CRs are different:

CR -8 = divide by 16
CR -7 = divide by 12
CR -6 = divide by 8
CR -5 = divide by 6
CR -4 = divide by 4
CR -3 = divide by 3
CR -2 = divide by 2
CR -1 = divide by 1.5
CR +/-0 = Party Average Level x 300
CR +1 = x1.5
CR +2 = x2
CR +3 = x3
CR +4 = x4
CR +5 = x6
CR +6 = x8
CR +7 = x12
CR +8 = x16

eg. So a 40th-level party (CR30)

vs. A formerly CR30 monster (now CR25)
Difference CR -5 so divide XP by 6
300x40 (level) = 12,000 divided by 6 = 2000

vs. A formerly CR50 monster (now CR42)
Difference CR+2 so multiply XP by 2
300x40 (level) = 12,000 multiplied by 2 = 24,000

This question is more of a "did you think about this?" question than a "I need the answer for tonight's game" question, but I believe it was worth asking! You may already have answered to this question in the thread explaining the change in CR calculation, but as it was on the old boards, I couldn't find it, so please discard the question if it is irrelevant...

You only need to ask mate! I don't mind.

For those waiting on answers from the previous thread I am not being rude (just busy) I will get round to answering them all sometime today.

 

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Hi Upper Krust, you said you have no mechanics for diffrent portfolio variants. But Destruction is a variant of Chaos, and it is obvious it should be assosiated with Destruction domain rather than Chaos. Similar case with Time/Travel.

Could you list your portfolio variants for each Portfolio?

 

[Upper_Krust]

A post from the old thread

Hi Sollir mate!

A bit off topic, but if a Greater God minimum level is 120, my character in the IR in the IC thread could qualify for it! Of course he is a Half-Celestial, Half-Machine, CE, Advanced to 45 HD Death Slaad with over 100 levels!

Immortality itself is not decided by level! That is only one of the prerequisites.

Even if you were to become immortal, divine status is based on worship points (csomic energy) anyway, so you could be a 145 HD/level Quasi-deity.

A 45HD death slaad would be a Demigod by default of Outsider Status within my system, by ostensibly siphoning cosmic energy.

Incidently if Lord Talos is reading this I was wrong about the Elder Elemental. It would also need 10+ Int, 10+ Wis and 10+ Cha - so it wouldn't qualify automatically just for having lots of HD and being an Elemental (or Outsider).

 

[Upper_Krust]

A post from the old thread.

Hi there Anabstercorian!

Just between you and me, I don't think Edena fully understands how much 120th level means in 3rd edition, at least with spellcasting type characters.

Edena and I are good friends. I presented him with a capable character conversion system to whereupon Edena of Neith worked out at about 104th-level in 3rd Ed. (72nd-cleric/32nd-Sorceress) but I think he is interested in waiting for some sort of official rules - which (according to WotC) won't appear in the Epic Level Handbook.

Incidently I present my system in an Appendix at the back of the Immortals Handbook. If anyone is interested I will post it here in this thread!?

 

[poilbrun]

OK, now I think I understand the logic behind the system to calculate XP. Instead of comparing Level with CR (as it is done in the DMG), you must compare the CR, right? However, I have some problems with the examples you gave :

A 40th-level party are now CR30
A (formerly CR40) monster is now CR30

A party of 4 level 40 characters wouldn't be CR 30, would it? After all, each character individually is CR 30, so if there are 4 characters, the CR should be higher, shouldn't it?

eg. So a 40th-level party (CR30)

vs. A formerly CR30 monster (now CR25)
Difference CR -5 so divide XP by 6
300x40 (level) = 12,000 divided by 6 = 2000

I'm with you there (except the CR of the party).

vs. A formerly CR50 monster (now CR42)
Difference CR+2 so multiply XP by 2
300x40 (level) = 12,000 multiplied by 2 = 24,000

Isn't the difference +12?

Incidently I present my system in an Appendix at the back of the Immortals Handbook. If anyone is interested I will post it here in this thread!?

That would be great!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Lord Talos mate!

Hi Upper Krust, you said you have no mechanics for different portfolio variants.

There simply isn't the space to cover every option.

Its not like the PHB details every domain, far from it!

But Destruction is a variant of Chaos, and it is obvious it should be assosiated with Destruction domain rather than Chaos. Similar case with Time/Travel.

A deity with the Chaos Portfolio could choose any of the aspect domains. They are not totally limited. But I am only concentrating on the most pertinent aspect.

Could you list your portfolio variants for each Portfolio?

Sure, but give me a day or so. I have a number of posts from the old thread still to attend to.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mate!

OK, now I think I understand the logic behind the system to calculate XP. Instead of comparing Level with CR (as it is done in the DMG), you must compare the CR, right? However, I have some problems with the examples you gave

Okay lets run through them.

A party of 4 level 40 characters wouldn't be CR 30, would it? After all, each character individually is CR 30, so if there are 4 characters, the CR should be higher, shouldn't it?

Player Character parties are regarded as as the average of their levels for determining CR/XP.

See the DMG pg. 165/166

An NPC party of 4 characters average 40th-level would be CR 34 (revised).

1 40th-level character = CR30
2 40th-level characters = CR32
4 40th-level characters = CR34
8 40th-level characters = CR36
etc.

Isn't the difference +12?

No my mistake was in typing out the revised CR.

A formerly CR 50 monster is now CR 32 (not 42)

Levels/Old CR 1-20 CR = +1 per Level
Levels/Old CR 21-40 CR = +1/2 per Level
Levels/Old CR 41-80 CR = +1/4 per Level

So for a CR 50 monster

First 20 of CR = 20
Second 20 (between 21-40) = CR+10 (total so far CR30)
Next 10 (between 41-50) = CR+2 (total CR32)

That would be great!

Okay I'll post the system when I get the chance, I am sure I have it typed somewhere. So I can just copy and paste...hopefully!

 

[Upper_Krust]

A post from the old thread.

Hi Zelda mate!

Well, guess why I was laughing about those IR character levels. It is just plain unbelivable, that they are not gods yet.

Not necessarily.

Some characters will pursue personal power rather than the glory of divinity.

(or maybe my gods are too weak, mmh...)

The gods are perfectly balanced to support interaction between each measure of divinity while still offering an increase in power.

However, without actual more unique powers and epic abilities they also aren't as powerful as they should be in level sense (or rather, they don't feel that divane). That's the funny thing about having all those prestige classes, you have a lot of cool abilites, but they become repeative, and not really mostly worth the trouble at such a high level.

I agree. Without more powerful Feats (at least) simply stacking classes won't have as much impact as they otherwise should.

I am sure between the new Feats I have in the Immortals Handbook and the Feats in the Epic Level Handbook, there should be a lot to work with.

I think something should change when go over level 40, or become demi-god (or both).

Not sure exactly what you are suggesting.

Remember in the Immortals Handbook their are Divinity Templates; Portfolio Templates; Immortal Powers (Common and Esoteric) that mortals cannot obtain.

Thanks for stat level list Krusty, it's useful.

No problem mate!

Few more questions, I hope you would answer.

Sure thing! Sorry for the delay by the way.

One more thing about stats. Should they be added as template (for example, if 30, then you actually add +20 to mortal being's stats)? Or are they avarage 'MAX'-values?

I have the stat increase as one of the factors of the Divinity Templates (in some cases Portfolio Templates also affect ability scores).

Mmh, also should dragon-god be more powerful than human one?

Not necessarily.

Do you think gods should/shoudn't have other templates ( for example think of that red dragon/fire-elemental hybrid in Druid's Grove net enchantment) that would raise/lower their stat values?

Absolutely, there is no reason why not!

Remember also that templates add to CR for considering minimum deity levels.

 

[CRGreathouse]

UK - I updated the other thread with a wealth chart for levels 21-200, extrapolating from the book as best I could. Check it out! You're the only one I could thuink of who would need such a thing...