Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Well, since U_K has laid some pretty good guidelines for CR/ECL of the divine templates and the break down of such, we could just use those guidelines...
Ex: Just take away all the divine bonus, but still rate powers on the Divine Ability Slot scale.
Won't removing the Divine bonuses change the CR though? That would invalidate the CR guidelines we used the template for in the first place.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Etc
I think this creature doesn't need a million unique powers (It can't use them all anyway) but 2-4 good ones.
Oh, definitely agreed on that point. That's true of monsters in general, when you make them; every monster-design article I've read in the last five years or so recommends that approach. We should make an effort to form a good, powerful base, with generic abilities on par with the Akalich's, and then take out what makes the Akalich unique and slot in the powers intended for this new undead type in their place. Then fiddle around with a few things like immunities, speed, and such, to make it more unique, and we'll have a pretty good creature (well, not alignment-wise, but you know what I mean
).
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
- A Life Drain effect, possibly Withering [Ray] or [Storm]
Blood drain can cause loss of STR or CON, I think, depending on what parts of the blood are lost; DEX loss could even become a factor if enough blood goes away for the victim to lose coordination. We could also say the thing can drain out cerebrospinal fluid or something like that, to damage nerves and directly drain DEX that way; possibly even the mental ability scores by that route. I think we agreed above that this sort of power was a good idea, the only question is what the Erythreon gains by doing so. Can it drain more than one ability score, and if so, what benefits does it gain from each (or are they even different)?
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
- Undead creation/Possession - A create spawn ability for Vampires, and the Magic Jar Spell-Like ability.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about
Magic Jar! Good call. We ought to power it up somehow, though, I think- similar to how the Akalich can put victims in
Temporal Stasis when a basic Lich can only do paralysis. Would allowing the Erythreon to possess multiple victims at the same time be enough of a boost, do you think, or should we add something else? Also, it should have the ability to get around immunity to Mind-Affecting effects for this-
Mind Blank is standard operating procedure for my Epic party, and I have no doubt that I'm not alone in that department. Perhaps this thing has a combination of the
Magic Jar effect with the psionic (Telekinesis) power
Control Body?
As for creating spawn, most of the undead we're basing this thing on can do that (Vampires, Spectres, Wraiths, even the humble Shadows), so I think the only question here is which of its draining mechanisms allows it to create new spawn, and what sort of creatures do its victims become? If we pick Vampire/Spawn, does that deny the flavor of the Ghost side of things? Is it reversed if we go with something incorporeal instead? Is there a way for it to do both at once without seeming cheesy?
Also, most of the undead of the types "under" the Erythreon create more like themselves, so perhaps this one should too, but I for one am reluctant to allow an undead this powerful to simply turn any corpse into another thing like itself. Of course, if we make it a Swarm (see below for discussion on that), it would basically be just expanding its own size by doing that, so perhaps this is the best way to go- still, I'm leery of the prospect of this even if it does carry a really screamingly obvious built-in adventure hook. "Quick! Spreading undead plague-cloud at 12 o'clock! Take it out!"
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
- The ability to energy drain foes?
Most of the undead "underneath" this one have that ability, this is true, so this one probably should too. Does it gain bonuses when it drains energy levels? If so, what does it gain?
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
- Perhaps a charm/dominate/rage ability, to cause mass bloodshed?
Ah, now
that is an ability I hadn't previously considered- but it's obvious in retrospect. Bodily fluids were thought to cause emotions in ancient times, after all, so a creature like this that's basically a cloud of undead bodily fluids (with control over the fluids in other things) should logically be able to do this. Great thought! We can add this to the pile of spell-like abilities, unless for some reason it looks like it should be something Supernatural and work by a different mechanism.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
I can't think of any others right now- and the above does give us four good powers to make this thing unique and flavorful.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
As for type... Undead Ooze (Incorporeal)?
I'll list out the traits of the proposed creature types we've had listed for this thing below.
Undead get: no CON score; 60-foot Darkvision; Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects, poison, Sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, and energy drain; Can't heal naturally but can be healed by
Inflict Wounds effects, but likewise are damaged by Healing effects; Immunity to any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also affects objects or is harmless, by extension of this is immune to death from massive damage, but is destroyed immediately at 0 hit points; uses CHA in place of CON for Concentration checks (and in many house-rules I've seen, any other check that would be CON-based if the undead is somehow affected by one or needs to make one); and unaffected by
Raise Dead or
Reincarnation but can be affected by
Resurrection effects if willing.
Oozes get: no INT score in all but the most special cases; Immunity to all Mind-Affecting effects as a result of being mindless; Blind but have Blindsight, and thus immunity to all gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and anything else that relies on sight to work; Immunity to poison, Sleep effects, paralysis, Polymorph effects, stunning, critical hits, and flanking.
Incorporeal subtype gets: Immunity to all nonmagical attack forms, and a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source except for Positive or Negative energy (i.e. still vulnerable to Healing here), Force effects, and Ghost Touch weapons or similar effects; no STR score, so it uses DEX to modify melee attacks; inability to participate in Grapples or Trips (can't do them, but can't be affected either); never take falling damage and can pass through any corporeal object without resistance (except Force effects); no natural armor but Deflection bonus to AC equal to the creature's CHA bonus; attacks are always touch attacks (i.e. they ignore armor and natural armor bonuses to AC).
Swarm subtype gets: Immunity to critical hits and flanking; Swarms of Tiny creatures take half damage from Slashing and Piercing weapons, Swarms of Diminutive or Fine creatures are just plain immune to all weapon damage; Immunity to grapples, trips, and bull rushes, and cannot grapple opponents; Immunity to spells or effects which target a specific number of creatures (including mighty ones such as
Disintegrate), except for Mind-Affecting effects if the Swarm has an INT score and a Hivemind (i.e. one mind that only comes into being when all the little critters form the Swarm, and controls the Swarm like its body); Vulnerability to area effects (that is, it takes 50% more damage from such); If made up of Fine or Diminutive creatures, the Swarm can be dispersed by high winds; no reach but attacks by occupying the same square as opponents and using a Swarm attack (needs no attack roll, just deals damage based on the Swarm's HD and also causes Distraction.
Given all of the above, I think our best bet for this creature is a Swarm of Fine Undead (Incorporeal). That will give it all the immunities of undead, immunity to all weapon damage and specific-target effects on top of that, the ability to pass through any solid object at will and for its attacks to harm Incorporeal targets (which are usually immune to swarms because they don't have bodies to attack), and the chance to give it an INT score without stepping on the Ooze type traits. We don't worry about the Swarm vulnerability to Mind-Affecting effects because it's Undead, and we don't worry about the Swarm's vulnerability to winds because it's Incorporeal. The only things from the potential list above it would be missing this way would be the immunity to Polymorph effects and sight-based effects. Also, it's vulnerable to area effects this way, but with energy immunities on par with the Akalich this becomes nearly a nonissue IMHO.
Alternately, we could make it an Undead Ooze (Incorporeal), but this would mean that weapons can harm it (if they're Ghost Touch or magical), it's no longer immune to target-based effects, and we have to bend the rules to give it an INT score (which I really think it needs to have). OTOH, this gives it immunity to Polymorph and sight-based effects, and we lose the vulnerability to area effects. I'm more inclined to go with the first option, myself.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
... Would it be mindless? (Doubtful)
Almost certainly not. None of the undead "underneath" it are mindless, and the flavor suggests that part of the reason for its existence is that the "soul" (or whatever the undead equivalent is) inhabits the blood and animates it directly.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
... How big is it? (Large/Huge so it can engulf things?)
Swarms can get to any size, as noted above, if you combine multiple ones together. One problem with making this thing a template and a Swarm, though, is what happens when a really large creature (like a giant) turns into one? Logically, such a base creature should produce a much bigger cloud, but swarms are mandated by the rules to be a specific size for game purposes. Should we have bigger base creatures produce multiple swarms that happen to share the same Hivemind, or is that too clunky? Should we just ignore the rule about all swarms being 10 feet on a side, and make up a new terminology like "Colossal Swarm of Fine Undead (Incorporeal)"?
Enough for this post.
