Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available)

[dante58701]

Thank the gods you won't be using it. The old format has splendid detail and when dealing with epic...details are highly important. I see them as being far more than mere flavor text.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I've been a lurker on these threads, but I recently purchased the Epic Bestiary .pdf.

Thank the gods you won't be using it. The old format has splendid detail and when dealing with epic...details are highly important. I see them as being far more than mere flavor text.

I think it is unfortunate that the new format is not going to be used. I have judged countless convention tables and the new stat blocks have been a godsend. Having a table of players sit around waiting for me to seek out some lost "splendid detail" is not fun at all. I am much more likely to use all of the abilities of a creature with the new format because I am much less likely to miss them. More than likely what happens for a DM is to simply never use those designed details at all because they can't be located quickly. Suddenly the encounter is less than a challenge because the monster is being run less than effectively. The CR ends up being inaccurate because those nice details are never found by the average DM. And I'd think that of all the beasts it is an Epic beast with critical details that must not be missed, one would want to present them in a fashion the average DM could locate as easily as possible lest the ability not be used at all...

The new stat block has been evolving, some of the criticised "missing details" are now included (such as AC break down is now added in the MM4).

 

[Upper_Krust]

I've been a lurker on these threads, but I recently purchased the Epic Bestiary .pdf.

Hey Eric...and thanks!

I think it is unfortunate that the new format is not going to be used. I have judged countless convention tables and the new stat blocks have been a godsend. Having a table of players sit around waiting for me to seek out some lost "splendid detail" is not fun at all. I am much more likely to use all of the abilities of a creature with the new format because I am much less likely to miss them. More than likely what happens for a DM is to simply never use those designed details at all because they can't be located quickly. Suddenly the encounter is less than a challenge because the monster is being run less than effectively. The CR ends up being inaccurate because those nice details are never found by the average DM. And I'd think that of all the beasts it is an Epic beast with critical details that must not be missed, one would want to present them in a fashion the average DM could locate as easily as possible lest the ability not be used at all...

The new stat block has been evolving, some of the criticised "missing details" are now included (such as AC break down is now added in the MM4).

I can see your point, although I would like to think listing monster tactics goes some way to addressing 'how to utilise it to its full potential'.

I presume MM4 has tactics for every monster?

 

[dante58701]

And the debate rages on

 

[dante58701]

I agree with Krusty...he more than adequately details these creatures for the "Average" DM...not there is such a thing. As for not having details prepared beforehand...thats just bad DMing. Every DM worth his salt knows that he must PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE. For if he doesn't the game falls apart, people wander off bored, and others just get annoyed. Ive had over 30 different DM's and the best ones planned ahead at least a week...gamed for 6hours straight once a week...and in general studied all the flavor text to better detail the monsters. HAck'n'Slash DMs are the current average DM...but Hack'n'Slash is boring. It's spose to be a bout "ROLEPLAYING". This isn't MAGIC CARDS or some similar game where only stat blocks matter. Ive DM'd for over 12 years. My worst campaigns were all stat and no flavor. My best ones had flavor. The players really got into it when they had details, details, details, details. They always asked questions, wanting to know more. It was awesome. One girl cried when her elf died. It was beautiful. She worked harder the next time to make sure her next character didnt die, but we ended up having a splendid viking funeral scene (it was a dwarfs idea).

Anyway Im sidetracking, all those details...they are important. Very important. So just plan ahead and everything will work out better.

Too many people want immediate gratification.

Your statblock is fast food...Ill take the filet minon (my stat block) anyday.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Hey Eric...and thanks!

Ah, but thank you!

I can see your point, although I would like to think listing monster tactics goes some way to addressing 'how to utilise it to its full potential'.

I presume MM4 has tactics for every monster?

Having only skimmed through it (I'm bogged down reviewing/commenting on a pair of 100+ page projects to be [hopefully] released this fall) every monster entry I have seen in MM4 does have a Strategy and Tactics section. Such sections can be very helpful, if written well and comprehensively. *shrug*

While I respect dante58701's preference for the old statblock, I won't bother responding to his appeal to elitism.

 

[dante58701]

It's not elitism...It's consistancy. Something WOTC sorely lacks.

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK,

would you agree with Fieari that his Angel of Death would be essentially an intermediate deity? If yes, is the difference in CR between 130 for an intermediate deity and 194 for an Old One (Galactus) not a bit small?
Thought the CR of intermediate deities would be below the 100 mark, but was only an assumption ^^

 

[poilbrun]

I agree with Krusty...he more than adequately details these creatures for the "Average" DM...not there is such a thing. As for not having details prepared beforehand...thats just bad DMing. Every DM worth his salt knows that he must PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE. For if he doesn't the game falls apart, people wander off bored, and others just get annoyed. Ive had over 30 different DM's and the best ones planned ahead at least a week...gamed for 6hours straight once a week...and in general studied all the flavor text to better detail the monsters. HAck'n'Slash DMs are the current average DM...but Hack'n'Slash is boring. It's spose to be a bout "ROLEPLAYING". This isn't MAGIC CARDS or some similar game where only stat blocks matter. Ive DM'd for over 12 years. My worst campaigns were all stat and no flavor. My best ones had flavor. The players really got into it when they had details, details, details, details. They always asked questions, wanting to know more. It was awesome. One girl cried when her elf died. It was beautiful. She worked harder the next time to make sure her next character didnt die, but we ended up having a splendid viking funeral scene (it was a dwarfs idea).

Anyway Im sidetracking, all those details...they are important. Very important. So just plan ahead and everything will work out better.

Too many people want immediate gratification.

Immediate gratification can be good fun. I DMed my first 3e campaign a very short time after the three core books were released; armed only with my 2e Dragonlance box. The "campaign", if I can call it that, lasted 55 hours over 3 days with 2 players. Basically, it was a slugfest between the characters (a red robe wizard and a two-weapon-wielding minotaur) and the Monster Manual. The story was pretty basic (I think I used the old "artifact divided in several parts all over the continent" trick to lead the characters from one place to the next) and I had no preparation at all. I either made up NPC on the fly or used those I knew from the books, but the campaign could have taken place in the Forgotten Realms or Eberron (except that didn't exist yet) and it would not have changed. The characters ended up around level 33-34 IIRC and we extrapolated rules for characters over level 20 (BAB +33 for the Minotaur, tons of spells for the wizard but none higher than 9th level and no epic spellcasting of course ).

Even though the campaigns I have DMed since were much more gratifying both for the players and for me, this is still one of the campaign they talk the most about. I realize that to most people this would not find this campaign fun at all, but we had a great time... tough some of it might be due to the fact that we were quite tired at the end of the 3-day marathon

 

[Kavon]

It's not elitism...It's consistancy. Something WOTC sorely lacks.

Consistency as in making the game for a certain kind of DM/player, that you deem the right way? Sounds a bit like elitism to me.

WotC is certainly inconsistent, with TSR before them. If they were absolutely 'consistent', like, why make new ways if the old ways still works? We'd still be playing OD&D...

Not to say I've been keeping up all that much. I don't know if WotC makes (new) products that still use an older MM way, and others using a newer way of doing things, but I somehow doubt that.
Progress can be bad, but it can also be good. Preferences will always differ, but in the end they have to make their products, and it's not bad to be innovative.

They made a new way of doing things, so what? Someone prefers it one way or another, so what?

The new way looks clear enough, though I don't know if I prefer either, since I really don't mind as long as it makes the point the creature is supposed to make. It's not like I continuously look in my MM when the players are in a battle, not even if I'm making the entire thing up as I go.

But yeah, now that I've said I don't mind either way, I prefer U_K to be consistent within his work on the Bestiary, like he said he would.
If there even will be another product that would have stat blocks as such, I'm sure U_K can decide then if he wants to be consistent with all his work (might be good, might be bad, who's to say), or if he might choose to do it in a different way, that might be better for that particular work.


Oh, on another note, about the preparations a DM has to make, one thing: There's nothing so unpredictible as a player (at least.. my players). If you want to prepare for everything that could happen, you'd really have to be godlike to do all the variables within a week's time, and still.. have a life besides DMing.



*blinks*

Hmm.. I actually made a long reply again

Oh, U_K, what would you guess the % of completion would be for the book at this point? I think it's a better question than asking you when you think you'll be done