Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Farealmer matey!

Then why can't adamatine bypass a tanks armor?

Simply because its a stupid notion to assume something can bypass hardness simply because its made of the same material.

Does an Iron Sword cut through an iron door like a hot knife through butter - no of course not.

The idea that certain materials (like iron and adamantine) ignore Golem Damage Reduction is preposterous.

Admittedly I encouraged such insanity by making Orichalcum ignore the first 100 points of hardness, but I was clearly mad back then.

 

[Farealmer3]

So it's you position that an Orichalcum weapon cannot bypass tank armor? You know how crazy that is? Why even use the stuff if it's utter worthless in overcoming the enemies defenses simply by them layering the stuff on? That would also mean the hardness of a 10 foot thick door OF IRON wouldn't be automatically overcome by the hardness of fickin neutronium.

 

[jedrious]

Hi Farealmer matey!



Simply because its a stupid notion to assume something can bypass hardness simply because its made of the same material.

Does an Iron Sword cut through an iron door like a hot knife through butter - no of course not.

The idea that certain materials (like iron and adamantine) ignore Golem Damage Reduction is preposterous.

Admittedly I encouraged such insanity by making Orichalcum ignore the first 100 points of hardness, but I was clearly mad back then.

actually that was a special property of Adamantine, not a section on the rules of hardness, and even then it's ignoring hardness less than 20, not ignoring the first 20 points of hardness

and having adamantine bypass the damage reduction of constructs made sense with adamantine's inate ability to damage lesser materials

it wasn't until somebody decided to say that DR/- was instead hardness and then go on to have orichalcum ignore the first 100 points of both hardness and damage reduction that we started running into an issue

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Farealmer matey!

So it's you position that an Orichalcum weapon cannot bypass tank armor?

Its the only logical position. Orichalcum is a material with no overt properties other than being dense.

You know how crazy that is?

Its not crazy at all, you simply aren't following the math through...

Why even use the stuff if it's utter worthless in overcoming the enemies defenses simply by them layering the stuff on?

...because its not worthless at all. Let me explain.

Orichalcum weapons do lots of damage as standard. That damage will eclipse the hardness of Adamantine or Iron or whatever (even Orichalcum to an extent). But there is no logical reason why orichalcum should ignore hardness. Just like an iron sword doesn't ignore the hardness of an iron door.

That would also mean the hardness of a 10 foot thick door OF IRON wouldn't be automatically overcome by the hardness of fickin neutronium.

Correct. Then we take into account that the Neutronium weapon dealt about 100,000 damage and the iron door has a hardness of 10. Therefore it sustained 999,990 damage and evaporated due to the extreme energies involved.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya jedrious dude!

actually that was a special property of Adamantine, not a section on the rules of hardness, and even then it's ignoring hardness less than 20, not ignoring the first 20 points of hardness

and having adamantine bypass the damage reduction of constructs made sense with adamantine's inate ability to damage lesser materials

Constructs shouldn't have Damage Reduction (for the most part anyways) they should have Hardness.

it wasn't until somebody decided to say that DR/- was instead hardness and then go on to have orichalcum ignore the first 100 points of both hardness and damage reduction that we started running into an issue.

If DR/- isn't hardness then what the hell is it!?

 

[jedrious]

Hiya jedrious dude!



Constructs shouldn't have Damage Reduction (for the most part anyways) they should have Hardness.

believe it or not the game designers did that for *GASP* balance purposes, especially since hardness applys to all damage, weapon, energy, spells, etc., DR however applys to only weapon damage and spells that mimic weapon damage

If DR/- isn't hardness then what the hell is it!?

DR/- is an expression of a creature's ability to shrug off blows derived from brute force whereas hardness is an expression of how an object resists all forms of damage

 

[Farealmer3]

Orichalcum weapons do lots of damage as standard.

And your stacking hardness rules can soak alot of damage as standard.

Correct. Then we take into account that the Neutronium weapon dealt about 100,000 damage and the iron door has a hardness of 10. Therefore it sustained 999,990 damage and evaporated due to the extreme energies involved.

Acually the doors hardness is 10 feet x 12 inches x 10 hardness(from your stacking rules which equals 1200 hardness. Also an earth size planet made of iron is safe from a neutronium golem. If someone hollowed out it's core(lets say 10 miles) and left the rest intact it would have a hardness of about 7,603,200,000 which makes a neutronium golems punches obsolete(but not a monoblade lol). Now all i need is how much damage a black hole golem can do so i can figure out how much iron makes it obsolete to.

 

[dante58701]

Likely an extraordinary amount. But stacking hardness makes it so high end damage output isn't absolutely insane. I love the basic idea behind it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

believe it or not the game designers did that for *GASP* balance purposes, especially since hardness applys to all damage, weapon, energy, spells, etc., DR however applys to only weapon damage and spells that mimic weapon damage

Yes but an iron golem is made of iron and as such should have hardness 10, not DR 10/iron.

DR/- is an expression of a creature's ability to shrug off blows derived from brute force whereas hardness is an expression of how an object resists all forms of damage

Indeed, but there is no reason why a golem should have DR and not hardness.

Also shrugging off blows should be part of Armor Class.

All that said, I actually think Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance are flawed mechanics and should probably be percentages if we want a more balanced game, especially at epic levels. This way attacks are lessened but its not an either/or can I/can't I hurt monster x.

 

[Upper_Krust]

And your stacking hardness rules can soak alot of damage as standard.

Not exactly.

Acually the doors hardness is 10 feet x 12 inches x 10 hardness (from your stacking rules which equals 1200 hardness.

No, its made of iron. Its hardness is always 10. But its hit points (in terms of whats behind it - as in someone driving a tank) would be 1200 in effect DR is hit points for an object here.

So if you dealt 700 damage from a single attack, the iron would sustain a loss of 690 to its hit points (700 - 10 for hardness). It would have a remaining 510.

If you struck it a second time for 700 damage you would destroy the iron vault door(?) and deal 180 damage to something directly behind it.

Also an earth size planet made of iron is safe from a neutronium golem. If someone hollowed out it's core(lets say 10 miles) and left the rest intact it would have a hardness of about 7,603,200,000 which makes a neutronium golems punches obsolete(but not a monoblade lol). Now all i need is how much damage a black hole golem can do so i can figure out how much iron makes it obsolete to.

1. No its hardness would not be 7 billion.
2. The neutronium golem would eventually punch through it.
3. A monoblade would cut through a planet, but only to the length of the blade and even if you had a blade the size of a planet, it would simply slice the planet in half but the planet itself would rejoin due to gravity almost immediately.