In substantial monsters hit point totals.

[shadowguidex]

I've noticed that insubstantial monsters have significantly less hit points than the rules would ordinarily dictate. Examples:

a) Ghost - Phantom Warrior (MM 116). Level 5 soldiers (48 hp) with con 12, they should have 52 hp, but they only have 40 - same total as their type minus constitution.

b) Ghost - Tormenting Ghost (MM 117). Level 21 controller (176 hp) with con 20, they should have 196 hp, but listed as only having 152.

c) Specter (MM 244). Level 4 Lurker (30 hp) with con 13, they should have 43 hp, but listed as 30.

d) Mad Wraith (MM 266). Level 6 Controller (56 hp) with con 12, they should have 68 hp but only have 54.


I don't understand whats going on here, there is some sort of arbitrary mechanic that isn't listed, to my knowledge, anywhere. Virtually all monsters follow the formulas but the insubstantials do not. Anyone have any opinions?

 

[keterys]

Level 5 soldiers are actually 48 hp + con, so... same total as their type minus constitution, and -8 for maybe miscalculating level

Some insubstantial creatures follow the rules (Phane), but others don't.

My theory had been that it was 2 * (Lvl + 1) hp less... which matches many of them, but not all.

 

[James McMurray]

Looks like they're compensating for the monster not taking full damage unless you've got someone with Inescapable Force in the party. The 40 hit points for a ghost are closer to 82 in play (assuming some odd damage rolls getting rounded down). Under that light, insubstantial creatures have more hit points than a normal monster unless you're specifically geared towards fighting them.

 

[shadowguidex]

Looks like they're compensating for the monster not taking full damage unless you've got someone with Inescapable Force in the party. The 40 hit points for a ghost are closer to 82 in play (assuming some odd damage rolls getting rounded down). Under that light, insubstantial creatures have more hit points than a normal monster unless you're specifically geared towards fighting them.

Clearly, but what is the exact mechanic that is being utilized to reduce their hp? I don't recognize a specific formula addendum that is influencing this, just the obvious, which is that they have less hp. I want to know how much less I need to account for when making or adjusting insubstantial monsters.

 

[James McMurray]

Ah. Sorry, can't help you there. Haven't read the MM or that area of the DMG.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

It seems like a combination of bad math and possibly bad conversion of monsters as well.

My guess is that at one time undead or insubstantial creatures didn't have Con, and these monsters were made up during that period. Then the decision was made that everything should have Con, so it was put back in but the HP total was left unaltered, by mistake.

Looks like a good thing to run by customer service to see if it's a bug.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's not a bug. Insubstantial creatures (and those with regeneration, for that matter) have lower HP than others of their type and level. This is quite deliberate.

What I don't know, however, is what formula is used to determine the amount of difference.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It's not a bug. Insubstantial creatures (and those with regeneration, for that matter) have lower HP than others of their type and level. This is quite deliberate.

Doesn't that rather eliminate/reduce the benefit for being insubstantial though?

 

[WhatGravitas]

Doesn't that rather eliminate/reduce the benefit for being insubstantial though?

Not really - if you double their hit points, they still come out ahead monsters without Insubstantial. Just not as much (i.e. by 100%, which would be the jump from normal to elite, hit point-wise).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Mon]

Maybe it is a % of role and level hp, plus con score.

Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Woot!!

Edit: Forget it, doesn't work out that way no matter how you slice it. Prolly shoulda done some sums before posting, eh?