In the heat of battle, is hit point loss a wound?

[Warbringer]

"You're more full of life stuff." Brilliant!

Lanefan

Just replace Hit Points with Life Stuff; no more confusion

 

[Dannager]

A hit not being an actual hit presents problems in narration and immersion. The opposite does not hold, so the default should be that a sword, hammer, axe, or whatever actually causes injury. Imagine that!

There are many of us who have run into no problems with narration or immersion when dealing with hit points in 4e. Clearly, therefore, problems with narration or immersion are not a necessary function of abstract, 4e-style (and I don't really mean 4e-style hit points, since hit points are defined the same in 4e as they are in pretty much every other edition) hit points. Rather, I would argue, they are a function of the group adjudicating them, and of that group's willingness to accept hit points as they have been defined.

By the way, if anything, non-abstract hit points cause problems with narration and immersion. A beef-tacular barbarian with 200 hit points can take Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball to the face and still have half his hit points remaining. If those hit points represent actual wounds associated with the attacks, your barbarian should be (narratively speaking) the adventurer equivalent of carne asada. But if those hit points are not actual wounds, then your barbarian can simply be exhausted and battered from repeatedly diving out of the way of explosions and flying debris, action-movie style.

 

[El Mahdi]

Just replace Hit Points with Life Stuff; no more confusion

Just as long as everybody keeps their Life Stuff to themselves!

 

[Mercutio01]

There are many of us who have run into no problems with narration or immersion when dealing with hit points in 4e. Clearly, therefore, problems with narration or immersion are not a necessary function of abstract, 4e-style (and I don't really mean 4e-style hit points, since hit points are defined the same in 4e as they are in pretty much every other edition) hit points. Rather, I would argue, they are a function of the group adjudicating them, and of that group's willingness to accept hit points as they have been defined.

So, what you're saying, is that those of us who have a "hit" and "damage" follow the actual dictionary definitions of the real words are playing D&D wrong? Because that's complete and utter BS.

By the way, if anything, non-abstract hit points cause problems with narration and immersion. A beef-tacular barbarian with 200 hit points can take Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball to the face and still have half his hit points remaining. If those hit points represent actual wounds associated with the attacks, your barbarian should be (narratively speaking) the adventurer equivalent of carne asada. But if those hit points are not actual wounds, then your barbarian can simply be exhausted and battered from repeatedly diving out of the way of explosions and flying debris, action-movie style.

You're falling into a fallacy here. The answer to "no wounds" is not "all wounds." It's "mitigated wounds." The barbarian wouldn't be barbecue, but he'd have some inflamed skin. He ducked his head and managed not to be barbecue, but the flames still licked against his skin and probably hurt like hell. He ducked beneath the flames as they burst, and didn't take the full brunt of the flame (even if he didn't save for half).

This is the commonest objection to hit points = wounds and it's a fallacy.

Once again, those people for whom a hit is actually a hit and a damage actually damage do not describe an axe hit as "cleaving into your ribs and disemboweling your barbarian," at least until the hit that kills a character. What we do do is say, "The orc's axe blow slices across your thigh, leaving a small cut." Or, with your fireball example, "The fireball explodes and the flames surround you, but you duck and huddle down as the fire licks against your back and singes a few hairs, with most of the heat passing by you. It's going to hurt in a few minutes when the adrenaline runs out."

See? A hit that's a hit. Wounds that need to be taken care of. The hit points lost are simultaneously representing a mix of luck, skill, endurance, and physical wounds. Which is what the rules say.

 

[Neonchameleon]

By the way, if anything, non-abstract hit points cause problems with narration and immersion. A beef-tacular barbarian with 200 hit points can take Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball after Fireball to the face and still have half his hit points remaining. If those hit points represent actual wounds associated with the attacks, your barbarian should be (narratively speaking) the adventurer equivalent of carne asada. But if those hit points are not actual wounds, then your barbarian can simply be exhausted and battered from repeatedly diving out of the way of explosions and flying debris, action-movie style.

Emphatically this. If hit points are not largely abstract then my suspension of disbelief breaks hard as soon as the number of hit points a PC has exceeds the amount of damage an orc can do with an axe on a critical hit. It's not fireball after fireball to the face, it's axe blow after axe blow biting deep into their body that causes my brain to break.

 

[Mercutio01]

Emphatically this. If hit points are not largely abstract then my suspension of disbelief breaks hard as soon as the number of hit points a PC has exceeds the amount of damage an orc can do with an axe on a critical hit. It's not fireball after fireball to the face, it's axe blow after axe blow biting deep into their body that causes my brain to break.

See above. It's not "axe blow after axe blow biting deep into their body." And neither is it, "The orc rolls a hit. You narrowly avoid having your head chopped off." It's "The orc rolls a hit. His axe slams into your chest. Your armor softens the blow, but it's going to leave a bruise."

Why do "HP is NEVER damage" people seem as obstinate and unimaginative as they claim we are?

 

[Neonchameleon]

See? A hit that's a hit. Wounds that need to be taken care of. The hit points lost are simultaneously representing a mix of luck, skill, endurance, and physical wounds. Which is what the rules say.

Then why are you arguing against this? Why are you arguing that PCs can't recover luck, endurance, and skill by resting? Why are you arguing that wounds are every bit as serious after they are bandaged as before? You claim that hit points are luck, skill, endurance, and physical wounds. But mysteriously you hate mundane healing and hate catching a breath actually getting some of your endurance back.

Why in your world is the only way to recover your endurance to have a magic spell cast on you? Why are wounds just as crippling when the blood has clotted and they have been bandaged as they were when they were fresh, immediately painful, and flowing freely? And why is the only way to recover luck to have the Cleric wiggle his fingers at you?

 

[Mercutio01]

Then why are you arguing against this? Why are you arguing that PCs can't recover luck, endurance, and skill by resting? Why are you arguing that wounds are every bit as serious after they are bandaged as before? You claim that hit points are luck, skill, endurance, and physical wounds. But mysteriously you hate mundane healing and hate catching a breath actually getting some of your endurance back.

Why in your world is the only way to recover your endurance to have a magic spell cast on you? Why are wounds just as crippling when the blood has clotted and they have been bandaged as they were when they were fresh, immediately painful, and flowing freely? And why is the only way to recover luck to have the Cleric wiggle his fingers at you?

Did I EVER say that I don't want "some of your endurance back"? EVER? No, I said you shouldn't get ALL of it back.


EDIT: Hell - I even looked at some of the "compromise" proposals and thought they might make some sense. My objection has always been that sleeping for 8 hours takes you back to perfectly normal. A long rest grants every last single hit point back.

 

[Grydan]

[MENTION=717]JRRNeiklot[/MENTION] I don't think Jason Alexander's quoted examples really hold for any edition of D&D.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge there's never been an edition of the game where a good night's rest didn't recover at least 1 HP.

If such is the case, then in any non-fatal scenario, even for a 1 HP character, it seems rather unlikely that 1 HP of damage represents a punctured lung or broken limb, unless we are to believe that the less health one has to begin with, the more one's rate of healing resembles Wolverine's.

HP as representing anything other than abstract distance from unconsciousness and/or death are rather a dismal failure. They certainly are a poor system for modelling punctured lungs and broken limbs, things that would most certainly have an actual impact on further activities an adventurer might partake in.

If my character is down to his final hitpoint, and yet can still run as fast, jump as far, lift as much weight, and wield his weapon just as well as he could at full health, then I'm rather disinclined to think that any HP damage short of death is inflicting wounds worthy of being called wounds.

I think the HP system is a wonderful and highly successful gaming tool. However, if one actually wants to model injury rather than arbitrary lifebar, one should probably look to some other system.

I should note that any system that actually tries to model injury in any meaningful way is pretty much inevitably going to have death spirals, which appeal to some gamers, but are rather a turn-off to others.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Did I EVER say that I don't want "some of your endurance back"? EVER? No, I said you shouldn't get ALL of it back.

You said, and I quote "I hate mundane healing" over on the other thread. Getting your endurance and hence your hit points back from resting is healing. It's getting your hit points back.

EDIT: Hell - I even looked at some of the "compromise" proposals and thought they might make some sense. My objection has always been that sleeping for 8 hours takes you back to perfectly normal. A long rest grants every last single hit point back.

And here I offered another compromise which you rejected out of hand. I'll get rid of the 8 hour rest when wizards need to go to a tower, library, or lab to prepare spells and clerics need time in the temples. This is a gamist issue and one that makes the 15 minute adventuring day even more absurd.

While your precious wizards get everything back after 8 hours, so do the fighters. Change one and the other moves with it. And I'll gladly move both in my games.

Edit: And please find me these mythical "hp is never damage" people. Because I'm not one and I've never met one.