Incorporeal Miss Chance and ongoing effects..

[Jhulae]

In a recent game, we were fighting wraiths. There is a 50% 'miss chance' with almost everything - including spells (and therefore, psionic powers).

Let's say I'm manefesting a power that continues beyond one round (specifically, Energy Current). I hit with the effect on the first round. Do I have to roll every round, or since I've already hit the wraith with my power, does it continue to affect it without needing a roll?

I think the latter, but we couldn't find any specific ruling for it.

 

[frankthedm]

You bring up an interesting point on how continual effects would interact with incorporeal creatures.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

But no matter how good the argument, all I have to do is look at the anemic HP of incorporeal undead to decide 50%/50% each time the thing is going to eat damage.

 

[irdeggman]

I would say the the miss chance applies every round.

In the case of this power the saving throw is made every round (which implies separate attacks) so that would lend credence to applying the same logic to the miss chance too.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

The question is (to put it in World of Warcraft terms), after you get that debuff of an ongoing spell to hit them, is it another attack and needs a new miss chance, or is the spell + ongoing part of the same effect?

I lean towards if it's alwready effecting them, and not an external effect hitting them again, then it should auto-hit.

 

[VanRichten]

I would look at it this way. The 50% chance applies when the point of impact is made. So once the impact has occurred the effect, if it passes the test, would continue to function as normal without miss.

An example would be a Rogue with a Ring of Blinking is targeted by a Wizard with Melf's Acid Arrow. The spells says it has ongoing damage and the Wizard passes the miss chance agains said Rogue. In the first round damage is dealt. In the following round the acid is already on the rogue and regardless of his location it does not move. Therefore it will continue to burn him even though he is not on the same plane of existence.

The same would apply for an incorporeal source. Just because the creature has a chance to be missed by the initial attack, does not mean that continuous damage must be checked each round. This would only be the case if you were to have to make an "attack check" each round.

An "attack check" would be defined as an attack roll, or forcing the target to save vs. a spell being cast upon him in the round it is being cast, or by the target moving into an area where a spell is in effect and it then being required to make a saving throw.

Since your effect states that it does ongoing damage it would continue to do so without need for further miss chance due to it passing the initial check.

Furthermore I would state that though the RAW states:

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

I would consider the source to no longer be corporeal in nature as it is now a part of the creature. Since there are so few on going damage effects I would not consider this to be a broken or overpowering effect.

The idea of being "incorporeal" is that it is partially in this plane of existence and partial on the Ethereal plane. Which means that if you were on the Ethereal plane it would be a real as you or I. So in reality it does have a physical form, just half of it is in another dimension.

 

[irdeggman]

Since your effect states that it does ongoing damage it would continue to do so without need for further miss chance due to it passing the initial check.

But the effect also states that either a reflex or fort save (depending on energy type) appies every round too. So it is a tad more complex then merely continuous damage.

 

[VanRichten]

But the effect also states that either a reflex or fort save (depending on energy type) appies every round too. So it is a tad more complex then merely continuous damage.

Based on that you could argue it is an external source and therefore subject to the 50% miss chance.

Though using our Rogue in my example you could also argue that if said Rogue was hit with a poison he could possibly be "missed" by it in the following check. This would be due to the fact that a following check requires a saving throw much like the effect mentioned above where a reflex or fort save (depending on energy type) is stated.

Ultimately this boils down to a DM call. Determined mostly by your interpretation and strictness of the rules. Regardless of whichever way you choose keep consistant with both sides PC and NPC alike, and be fair with your adjudication of it.

 

[irdeggman]

Based on that you could argue it is an external source and therefore subject to the 50% miss chance.

Though using our Rogue in my example you could also argue that if said Rogue was hit with a poison he could possibly be "missed" by it in the following check. This would be due to the fact that a following check requires a saving throw much like the effect mentioned above where a reflex or fort save (depending on energy type) is stated.

Ultimately this boils down to a DM call. Determined mostly by your interpretation and strictness of the rules. Regardless of whichever way you choose keep consistant with both sides PC and NPC alike, and be fair with your adjudication of it.

Just for reference here is the SRD entry for the power (se we all know what it says):

Energy Current
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Kineticist 5
Display: Visual; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Any two creatures no more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 9
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Your body’s psionically fueled bioenergetic currents produce an arc of energy of the chosen type that targets a creature you designate as the primary foe for 9d6 points of damage in every round when the power remains in effect. Energy also arcs off the primary foe to strike one additional foe that is initially within 15 feet of the primary foe, or that subsequently moves within 15 feet of the primary foe while the duration lasts. Secondary foes take half the damage that the primary foe takes in every round while the duration lasts.
Should either the primary or secondary foe fall to less than 0 hit points (or should a target completely evade the effect with a special ability or power), the energy current ’s arc randomly retargets another primary and/or secondary foe while the duration lasts. Targeted foes can move normally, possibly moving out of range of the effect, but each round they are targeted and remain in range they must make a saving throw to avoid taking full damage in that round.
Concentrating to maintain energy current is a full-round action. If you take damage while maintaining energy current, you must make a successful Concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt) to avoid losing your concentration on the power.
Cold: A current of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold current is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity: Manifesting a current of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A current of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic: A current of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.
Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.
1. For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
2. For every 4 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional secondary target. Any additional secondary target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

What I find the most interesting (and pertenant) parts I've bolded.

Note that it requires concentration (as a full round action) to maintain. So it would appear it is not actually persistant like poison (which has a very specific mechanic for secondary damage) but rather a directed attack.

The word "target" and "targeted" is used repetively when describing how this power works.

Looking for a spell that might work similarly here are a couple of potential examples:

Flaming Sphere
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 5-ft.-diameter sphere
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 2d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns. It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size. The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame. It cannot push aside unwilling creatures or batter down large obstacles. A flaming sphere winks out if it exceeds the spell’s range.
Arcane Material Component: A bit of tallow, a pinch of brimstone, and a dusting of powdered iron.

Concentration redirects the sphere (although not a full round concentration action) with no attack roll but a saving throw.

Storm of Vengeance
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Drd 9, Clr 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: 360-ft.-radius storm cloud
Duration: Concentration (maximum 10 rounds) (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell creates an enormous black storm cloud. Lightning and crashing claps of thunder appear within the storm. Each creature beneath the cloud must succeed on a Fortitude save or be deafened for 1d4x10 minutes.
If you do not maintain concentration on the spell after casting it, the spell ends. If you continue to concentrate, the spell generates additional effects in each following round, as noted below. Each effect occurs during your turn.
2nd Round: Acid rains down in the area, dealing 1d6 points of acid damage (no save).
3rd Round: You call six bolts of lightning down from the cloud. You decide where the bolts strike. No two bolts may be directed at the same target. Each bolt deals 10d6 points of electricity damage. A creature struck can attempt a Reflex save for half damage.
4th Round: Hailstones rain down in the area, dealing 5d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save).
5th through 10th Rounds: Violent rain and wind gusts reduce visibility. The rain obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). Speed is reduced by three-quarters.
Ranged attacks within the area of the storm are impossible. Spells cast within the area are disrupted unless the caster succeeds on a Concentration check against a DC equal to the storm of vengeance’s save DC + the level of the spell the caster is trying to cast.

It would appear that each round is a separate action and thus would require separate miss attempts, at least to me.

Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

It doesn't seem to say that it actually requires an attack (as in attack roll) to invoke the special properties of the miss chance for spells. There is a 50% to ignore any damage - not technically a "miss chance".