OSR Interesting Replacements for Turn Undead?

[RealAlHazred]

One of the interesting ideas I've seen online is the idea of giving clerics of some religions something other than "Turn Undead" as a power. Of course, the 2E AD&D supplement PHBR3 The Complete Priest's Handbook had "Granted Powers" in several flavors, and 3.X solidified the idea of "Domain Powers" relating to the deity's sphere of influence which continues to 5E. But I'm talking about less-complicated, B/X-level alternatives for Turn Undead to give some clerics a different feel from others.

As an example, St. Gumption (from Roles, Rules, & Rolls), the "patron of endurance and constitution," doesn't grant her clerics "Turn Undead:"

All her prophets lack the ability to abjure evil creatures, but emanate a 10' radius aura of morale (+2 for allied NPCs and animals). Additionally, they can exhort others to buck up and pull themselves together, having the ability to dispel fear, confusion, and paralysis at will by touch (at 1st level), at 30' distance (at 3rd level) or for all creatures in a 30' radius (at 5th level). Finally, they save at +4 versus all mind-affecting magic and distractions.

This seems like a good replacement. I've also thought, for a patron of love and beauty, replacing "Turn Undead" with "fascination," which would work like suggestion. What are other ideas people have explored in B/X-based games?

 

[payn]

One of the interesting ideas I've seen online is the idea of giving clerics of some religions something other than "Turn Undead" as a power. Of course, the 2E AD&D supplement PHBR3 The Complete Priest's Handbook had "Granted Powers" in several flavors, and 3.X solidified the idea of "Domain Powers" relating to the deity's sphere of influence. But I'm talking about less-complicated, B/X-level alternatives for Turn Undead to give some clerics a different feel from others.

As an example, St. Gumption (from Roles, Rules, & Rolls), the "patron of endurance and constitution," doesn't grant her clerics "Turn Undead:"

This seems like a good replacement. I've also thought, for a patron of love and beauty, replacing "Turn Undead" with "fascination," which would work like suggestion. What are other ideas people have explored in B/X-based games?

I love these ideas and think they go a long ways toward getting away from homogenous character design. I dont have an idea at the moment to add, but its got me thinking on it.

 

[Cruentus]

We're playing in a couple different B/X games at the moment, and my players are finding Turn Undead to be gold.

That being said, some ideas would be to possibly grab some of the low level spells, like Protection from Evil, Detect (magic, object), maybe Light (stationary) that can be held for some short duration. You could also look at some 5e Domain abilities and tone them down to something appropriate if you didn't want to just cull it from B/X.

I had also considered an ability similar to Consecrate Ground that was a common clerical function, and in some editions had a specific spell. Although I might just re-spell it for B/X.

 

[Staffan]

I'm not much of an OSR person, but I'll chime in with a thought I had the other day about 3e Turn Undead, its variants, and its descendants.

Turn Undead is a niche ability. Sure, one of the main reasons people often want to replace it with something else is that it might be inappropriate for a particular patron deity, but just as often I think it's because they want something more generically useful. As a particularly broken example, 3e added the concept of Divine Metamagic, where you could use your daily Turn Undead attempts to add meta-magic effects on the fly (instead of having to prepare the spell at a higher level).

I'm not opposed to trading out Turn Undead for clerics of gods who could have more appropriate abilities, but I think it should be traded for abilities that are equally niche. For example, a nature priest could get something like a "wild empathy" ability (understanding what an animal wants and making your own desires known, pacifying it unless it is directly hostile for some reason). That's also an ability that doesn't necessarily come into play that often, but when it does you feel great.

 

[Alzrius]

While it's not quite in replacement of turn undead, Dragon magazine #248, in the "Sage Advice" column, pointed out that (at least in AD&D 2E), clerics and paladins were supposed to be able to turn more than just undead:

Q: The second note under the undead turning table in the Player’s Handbook says that undead living on the outer planes can be turned as “special” creatures. Thus I suppose that only undead creatures are affected. A baatezu or a tanar’ri cannot be turned. Right?


A: If the note were correct, you’d be right. But the line should read “…and those creatures that dwell on the outer planes.” A good priest can turn evil creatures (evil priests turn good creatures) from the outer planes, provided the creature has 11 hit dice or fewer. (Neutral priests turn both or pick one set or the other to turn, as the DM decides.)

Personally, if I were going to change the ability, I'd restrict it to just planar creatures, since that seems like it's more thematically tied to deities of all types, unlike how some gods don't care about death/undeath.

 

[aco175]

I swapped out a dwarf cleric turn undead with a modified version of Marthamor's Thunderbolts. You basically shoot 2 bolts from your eyes that deal lightning damage or healing. I made it a bit weak compared to other things to make up for being able to use it in all situations. It did level some like TU, but became the 3rd or 4th option after a while.

I like what @Staffan said upthread about it being a niche ability most days and swapping it for another situation ability would be better.

I also like the 5e method of having a 2nd power that can be used but you still have TU as an option. You could go simple and just give a healing power to swap when not using TU.

 

[RealAlHazred]

I wasn't thinking of replacing Turn Undead with "optimized" abilities or anything; I was more thinking from a standpoint of, is there something more appropriate for these clerics. For instance, in my campaign, St. Foutin is basically a patron saint of love and romance, and Turn Undead doesn't really seem appropriate for clerics who call him their patron; on the other hand, a fascination ability seems right up their alley. I was looking for more examples of similar tricks a cleric might have instead. For instance, Loki is a god of mischief, so what should his clerics do? (Other than say they're actually clerics of some other god...)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For instance, in my campaign, St. Foutin is basically a patron saint of love and romance, and Turn Undead doesn't really seem appropriate for clerics who call him their patron

Being able to charm sentient creatures would seem to be a natural fit.

For instance, Loki is a god of mischief, so what should his clerics do? (Other than say they're actually clerics of some other god...)

Manifesting an aura of chaos (or a targetable ability) in which whatever could go wrong has a greatly increased chance of so doing would be appropriate.

 

[aco175]

There are several powers in 4e/5e, and the Faiths and Powers 2e books, that could work for you. Making someone re-roll a check or attack might work for Loki. Might not be as powerful as TU, but is more useful in all situations.

Another point is based on how you view clerics in general compared to other clergy in the church. I feel that clerics are more the fighting arm of a church instead of the bureaucracy. St Foutin has other important people around to talk the tenants of faith compared to Loki, but needs strong men to go battle in his name. Those are the clerics in the game.

There could also be things that are flavored, but not affect much. St Foutins clerics could shower the area with rose petals when turning undead and Thor's clerics might spread something that looks like lightning. Loki might have a blur if his image backstabbing the undead, but all the affects are the same and only the image of the spell is different. It is not as cool as having a different power though.

 

[RealAlHazred]

There are several powers in 4e/5e, and the Faiths and Powers 2e books, that could work for you. Making someone re-roll a check or attack might work for Loki. Might not be as powerful as TU, but is more useful in all situations.

Another point is based on how you view clerics in general compared to other clergy in the church. I feel that clerics are more the fighting arm of a church instead of the bureaucracy. St Foutin has other important people around to talk the tenants of faith compared to Loki, but needs strong men to go battle in his name. Those are the clerics in the game.

There could also be things that are flavored, but not affect much. St Foutins clerics could shower the area with rose petals when turning undead and Thor's clerics might spread something that looks like lightning. Loki might have a blur if his image backstabbing the undead, but all the affects are the same and only the image of the spell is different. It is not as cool as having a different power though.

I get what you're saying and agree -- PC clerics are less "Father Brown" but more "Brother Cadfael" -- militants who currently (or in Cadfael's case, formerly) used force to enforce the dictums of the Church. However, St. Foutin's clerics don't really do anything about undead -- they're more concerned with things like cruel lords who prevent their peasants from consummating relationships, or malevolent fae who use magic to cause chaos among the town's married folk, or the like. The closest they'd get to undead is the occasional "spurned lover coming back from the grave," but even then they're more likely to talk the restless spirit back into the grave than force them back with the cross.

A similar case is St. Amaro the Navigator. His clerics explore the seas and bring Scripture and word of the Church to foreign lands. I'm toying with some ability to influence things like the Event/Encounter/Navigation roll when seaborne, but that seems a little drab for a special clerical power.