Greybar
No Trouble at All
I mentioned this in the EPIC MAGIC thread, but haven't had enough time to get it going well, so I'm going to post it and hope it inspires other people, draws constructive criticism, or at least dies a quiet death.
Motivation:
(1 - Philosophical) The higher the level of the character, the more they seem to just be dripping with magic items. And yet my own concept of epic heroics is that the hero transcends material wealth and items and starts to embody a more abstract concept of hero. Eventually this leads cleanly to demigods and gods who have only a few signature items. This is good, since otherwise we'd have a Hercules who has a page of magic items alongside his stats just to keep up with the Joneses. And does anyone really care if Elric has a ring of protection +5 ... nah - he has Stormbringer and that's his burden. This also neatly explains why Balors and Solars only have a pittance of gear, rather than being fully decked out as you might expect a greedy, power-hungry demon to be.
(2 - Practical) Does anyone really like tracking wealth over a million gp? Worrying about what the cost of an item should be to the 100 gp or even 1000 gp? Does it seem like you're worrying about accounting more than kicking evil's butt?
Design Approach: Upper_Krust's system (at least when I last read it) placed wealth at 100 gp x Level^3. In general, the cost of items is based on bonus^2. We can draw a relationship and eliminate the exponential by saying the character has "intrinsic gear points" equal to their level.
This leads us to tables like this:
From which we can derive systems like the, based on the constant multiplier applied to the benefit. These are expressed as "base" (the benefit gained the first time you spend an instrinsic gear point) and "increment" (the increase in that benefit by spending additional points)
Base (Weapon, other 2000xBonusSquared) = 6 at level 21, +1 for every additional five levels.
Base (Armor, other 1000xBonusSquared) = 7 at level 21, +1 for every additional 3 levels.
Base (AC other than deflection, 2500xBonusSquared) = 4 at level 20, +1 for every additional six levels
Base (Skill bonus) = equal to level
Increment (Weapon) - each additional point, +1 to weapon enhancement value
Increment (Armor) - each additional point, +2 to armor enhancement value
Increment (2500base) - each additional point, +1 to AC bonus value
Increment (skill) - each additional point +5 to skill bonus
Same as Weapon = deflection AC bonus, natural armor bonus, bonus (non-resistance) to all SVs
Same as Armor = ability score bonus, bonus (resistance) to all SVs
Spell Resistance = level plus 8
Spell Resistance, increment = add two to SR base, maximum of level+15
Implementation: The idea in my mind is that upon reaching 21st level (or any level thereafter), the hero can decide to transcend items and convert their gear into instrinsic gear. They give up their items, somewhat like Vow of Poverty, (see note "retaining items" below) and gain a number of intrinsic gear points equal to their level. Everytime you level up, you gain another intrinsic gear point (and many of your existing intrinsic gear bonuses may increase).
* Retaining items: Another option would be to let them keep some instrinsic gear points set aside, each point of which is worth 100gp x level^2. This also helps cover items that are difficult to covert into this system.
* Epic spells: while I haven't worked it out, since epic spells are essentially a form of treasure, they would be converted into intrinsic gear points. This could simplify things, since you're more worried about whether a spell is worth 1 point or 2 points, rather than exactly how many gp. Note that they should scale up as the hero increases in level, as other abilities, which I personally think makes sense and is more fluid - allow the hero to add additional power to their spell naturally as they level up.
How do I handle Intrinsic Gear?: Intrinsic gear is part of the hero, an extension of their soul. Weapons, Armor, Shields, etc should be treated as if adamantine. They can be sundered and destroyed, but a good in-story reason simply restores them such as atonement with the smith-god who bestowed the weapon on the warrior, re-consecration at the holy pools within Celestia that bestows armor within your cleric's person, etc. Basically they can be destroyed for a "chapter" or series of chapters of your adventure. I see the intrinsic gear as being vulnerable to being suppressed by dispel, and treated as being created at a caster level equal to the ECL of the hero.
* Epic Rogues should, however, be able to steal instrinsic items, perhaps through a feat. Loki can still steal Thor's hammer.
What does this mean for game balance?: Intrinsic items are less flexible in many ways than real gear. You can't sell it on the spot if you need something different, and you have less granularity to make optimized choices (The latter part I consider a bit of an advantage). However, they are meant to be more powerful - the curve of increment should be tuned (if it isn't now) to slightly favor the instrinsic gear. Plus you can't get stripped naked by an MDJ.
In Closing: This little proposal is a long way from being ready for your campaign. I hope to try some playtesting in an arena type setting, perhaps here on ENWorld, but I frankly am frustrated by not having enough personal time to work out the details. This system needs lots of things - like ways to handle spellcasting items - one concept in my head is to treat an instrinsic epic staff much like a Leadership feat that causes you to have a little spellcaster of your own always on hand. But at worst I figure you can use the Intrinsic Point = 100gp x level^2 method to fake other items.
Constructive feedback is very welcome.
I hope to post some examples and ongoing thoughts as I have time.
Motivation:
(1 - Philosophical) The higher the level of the character, the more they seem to just be dripping with magic items. And yet my own concept of epic heroics is that the hero transcends material wealth and items and starts to embody a more abstract concept of hero. Eventually this leads cleanly to demigods and gods who have only a few signature items. This is good, since otherwise we'd have a Hercules who has a page of magic items alongside his stats just to keep up with the Joneses. And does anyone really care if Elric has a ring of protection +5 ... nah - he has Stormbringer and that's his burden. This also neatly explains why Balors and Solars only have a pittance of gear, rather than being fully decked out as you might expect a greedy, power-hungry demon to be.
(2 - Practical) Does anyone really like tracking wealth over a million gp? Worrying about what the cost of an item should be to the 100 gp or even 1000 gp? Does it seem like you're worrying about accounting more than kicking evil's butt?
Design Approach: Upper_Krust's system (at least when I last read it) placed wealth at 100 gp x Level^3. In general, the cost of items is based on bonus^2. We can draw a relationship and eliminate the exponential by saying the character has "intrinsic gear points" equal to their level.
This leads us to tables like this:
Code:
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35
gp 800000 926100 1064800 1216700 1382400 1562500 1757600 1968300 2195200 2438900 2700000 2979100 3276800 3593700 3930400 4287500
div lvl 40000 44100 48400 52900 57600 62500 67600 72900 78400 84100 90000 96100 102400 108900 115600 122500
100
Points Spent Lvl Eq
1 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35
2 28 30 31 33 34 35 37 38 40 41 42 44 45 47 48 49
3 35 36 38 40 42 43 45 47 48 50 52 54 55 57 59 61
4 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70
5 45 47 49 51 54 56 58 60 63 65 67 69 72 74 76 78From which we can derive systems like the, based on the constant multiplier applied to the benefit. These are expressed as "base" (the benefit gained the first time you spend an instrinsic gear point) and "increment" (the increase in that benefit by spending additional points)
Base (Weapon, other 2000xBonusSquared) = 6 at level 21, +1 for every additional five levels.
Base (Armor, other 1000xBonusSquared) = 7 at level 21, +1 for every additional 3 levels.
Base (AC other than deflection, 2500xBonusSquared) = 4 at level 20, +1 for every additional six levels
Base (Skill bonus) = equal to level
Increment (Weapon) - each additional point, +1 to weapon enhancement value
Increment (Armor) - each additional point, +2 to armor enhancement value
Increment (2500base) - each additional point, +1 to AC bonus value
Increment (skill) - each additional point +5 to skill bonus
Same as Weapon = deflection AC bonus, natural armor bonus, bonus (non-resistance) to all SVs
Same as Armor = ability score bonus, bonus (resistance) to all SVs
Spell Resistance = level plus 8
Spell Resistance, increment = add two to SR base, maximum of level+15
Implementation: The idea in my mind is that upon reaching 21st level (or any level thereafter), the hero can decide to transcend items and convert their gear into instrinsic gear. They give up their items, somewhat like Vow of Poverty, (see note "retaining items" below) and gain a number of intrinsic gear points equal to their level. Everytime you level up, you gain another intrinsic gear point (and many of your existing intrinsic gear bonuses may increase).
* Retaining items: Another option would be to let them keep some instrinsic gear points set aside, each point of which is worth 100gp x level^2. This also helps cover items that are difficult to covert into this system.
* Epic spells: while I haven't worked it out, since epic spells are essentially a form of treasure, they would be converted into intrinsic gear points. This could simplify things, since you're more worried about whether a spell is worth 1 point or 2 points, rather than exactly how many gp. Note that they should scale up as the hero increases in level, as other abilities, which I personally think makes sense and is more fluid - allow the hero to add additional power to their spell naturally as they level up.
How do I handle Intrinsic Gear?: Intrinsic gear is part of the hero, an extension of their soul. Weapons, Armor, Shields, etc should be treated as if adamantine. They can be sundered and destroyed, but a good in-story reason simply restores them such as atonement with the smith-god who bestowed the weapon on the warrior, re-consecration at the holy pools within Celestia that bestows armor within your cleric's person, etc. Basically they can be destroyed for a "chapter" or series of chapters of your adventure. I see the intrinsic gear as being vulnerable to being suppressed by dispel, and treated as being created at a caster level equal to the ECL of the hero.
* Epic Rogues should, however, be able to steal instrinsic items, perhaps through a feat. Loki can still steal Thor's hammer.
What does this mean for game balance?: Intrinsic items are less flexible in many ways than real gear. You can't sell it on the spot if you need something different, and you have less granularity to make optimized choices (The latter part I consider a bit of an advantage). However, they are meant to be more powerful - the curve of increment should be tuned (if it isn't now) to slightly favor the instrinsic gear. Plus you can't get stripped naked by an MDJ.
In Closing: This little proposal is a long way from being ready for your campaign. I hope to try some playtesting in an arena type setting, perhaps here on ENWorld, but I frankly am frustrated by not having enough personal time to work out the details. This system needs lots of things - like ways to handle spellcasting items - one concept in my head is to treat an instrinsic epic staff much like a Leadership feat that causes you to have a little spellcaster of your own always on hand. But at worst I figure you can use the Intrinsic Point = 100gp x level^2 method to fake other items.
Constructive feedback is very welcome.
I hope to post some examples and ongoing thoughts as I have time.
