iron heroes and armiger token pool

[DrSpunj]

Maybe the idea is to get surrounded (but you may have to fight for that square with your Berserker pal).

I think that's what seems to rub me the wrong way when I read through the classes. There are token classes that are entirely in control of when they get tokens (Archer, Hunter, Weapon Master) while the Berserker & the Armiger are builit the other way; they largely rely on their opponents to whack at them. The Berserker at least has his Stoke Fury ability to gain tokens, but the Armiger is solely dependent on his foes actions which seems a lot to me like the 3.5 Ranger's Favored Enemy ability (ie. hoping the DM is going to keep throwing orcs at you cuz that's the big bonus you've invested in ). And I'm never keen on two PCs fighting for the same limelight, namely being the ones surrounded and beat on.

While I've often seen suggested that as an Armiger you pick on "the big guy", that just doesn't seem to play out. As a DM, if my "big guy" is at all smart, he's going to realize pretty quickly that pounding away at the guy who's ready to be pounded on isn't a very effective tactic. He'd be far better off to try and catch the fast & squishy guy (Harrier) or charging the sneaky-type moving cautiously around the outskirts of the fight (Executioner and/or Thief). From a metagame standpoint, it's pretty clear that if you don't let the Armiger gain tokens he's not as much of a threat, so if you ignore him for awhile you're actually better off in many ways.

The 'turtle' part has no impact on how hard you are to hit in IH, remember. In fact if you have a high Dex (though I don't know why an Armiger would) then heavy armour will actually reduce your Defence due to the Max Dex limits.

Ooops, my bad. You're right! I'm still partly in Core mode I guess.

He does have the worst Defense progression, though he does get to enjoy a bit better Dex to Defense with his Armor Mastery (but as you say, that doesn't really actually help his acquisition of tokens). The Armor Mastery feats all help him quite a bit, but the other Armor Feat Masteries, namely Improved Shield Bash & Shield Mastery, are largely working at cross-purposes with his token accumulation again. You don't really want your defense to go up because then you have to find a way to get it back down to get hit more. And if you don't have to worry about lowering it because your opponent is so good he can hit you as is then he shouldn't have a lot of problems hitting any of the more squishy members of your party before he turns his attention to you.

His next best Feat Mastery is Defense, which also is at odds with his token accumulation: Deflect missiles doesn't allow him to absorb any damage, and Dodge & Mobility both make it harder to hit him!

The concept is really cool, but the execution seems to fall short. Now, as a playtester you may have seen one in play, Capellan, so I'd be interested to hear from you or that player and get a feel for what really played out okay and if anything just didn't seem to work as intended tableside.

Has anyone designed a mid to high level Armiger and found them capable of what they expect from the class's description? Anyone want to post one? (Consider it a challenge if it'll provoke a response: 10-15th level, or thereabouts, standard IH ruleset.)

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Ruvion]

Personally I think the Armiger is a half-caster...sort of like a paladin or a ranger. Not too reliant on spells but more on melee. The only problem is Armiger ignored is Armiger without tooth and claw. And as pointed out his mastery feat trees serve cross purposes. Hhhmm....I may just house rule it that Armigers gain tokens with every two misses or every 10 points of damage absorbed..

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I thought the IH Errata released shortly after the book removed that, iwatt:



Or did the Errata get errata-ed and I missed it?

I haven't seen the errata; is there a link? I couldn't find it on the IH site.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I haven't seen the errata; is there a link? I couldn't find it on the IH site.

Iron Heroes Errata

 

[Ulrik]

The only problem is Armiger ignored is Armiger without tooth and claw.

I don't quite agree with this. Consider this: An armiger with a greatsword is whacking the big bad. If the BBEG ignores the armiger, he'll happily accept the Suicidal Strike major defense challenge, giving him +3 to hit or +6 to damage. He probably hasn't spent any points on Dex (I think the trait Tough as Nails looks like a big hit for an armiger), so he has lots of points to spend on both Str and Con.

If the BBEG ignores the armiger he gives him a free +6 damage or +3 to hit on all his attacks. Even if he doesn't the armiger's got a lot of HPs and DR.

For me the Defense Challenges is what the Armiger is all about. He trusts in his armor to protect him, allowing him to ignore his opponents' attacks to deliver dangerous strikes.

The tokens are just an incidental side benefit, it's Armor Mastery (the class ability), the key to using heavy armor, which is the important bit.

 

[Victim]

I think that's what seems to rub me the wrong way when I read through the classes. There are token classes that are entirely in control of when they get tokens (Archer, Hunter, Weapon Master) while the Berserker & the Armiger are builit the other way; they largely rely on their opponents to whack at them. The Berserker at least has his Stoke Fury ability to gain tokens, but the Armiger is solely dependent on his foes actions which seems a lot to me like the 3.5 Ranger's Favored Enemy ability (ie. hoping the DM is going to keep throwing orcs at you cuz that's the big bonus you've invested in ). And I'm never keen on two PCs fighting for the same limelight, namely being the ones surrounded and beat on.

He does have the worst Defense progression, though he does get to enjoy a bit better Dex to Defense with his Armor Mastery (but as you say, that doesn't really actually help his acquisition of tokens). The Armor Mastery feats all help him quite a bit, but the other Armor Feat Masteries, namely Improved Shield Bash & Shield Mastery, are largely working at cross-purposes with his token accumulation again. You don't really want your defense to go up because then you have to find a way to get it back down to get hit more. And if you don't have to worry about lowering it because your opponent is so good he can hit you as is then he shouldn't have a lot of problems hitting any of the more squishy members of your party before he turns his attention to you.

His next best Feat Mastery is Defense, which also is at odds with his token accumulation: Deflect missiles doesn't allow him to absorb any damage, and Dodge & Mobility both make it harder to hit him!

The concept is really cool, but the execution seems to fall short. Now, as a playtester you may have seen one in play, Capellan, so I'd be interested to hear from you or that player and get a feel for what really played out okay and if anything just didn't seem to work as intended tableside.

Has anyone designed a mid to high level Armiger and found them capable of what they expect from the class's description? Anyone want to post one? (Consider it a challenge if it'll provoke a response: 10-15th level, or thereabouts, standard IH ruleset.)

Thanks!

DrSpunj

You also have to consider attack challenges for bonus damage or Power Attack. If the Armiger's defense is low (especially from defense challenges), then foes can easily chew through all his extra DR with Power Attack - possibly at 2 for 1 or more. You take -6 defense to get 3 DR, the enemy can take -6 attack for +12 damage. The Armiger needs a high enough defense to make PA and offensive challenges unattractive, because those attacks can really mess up people that rely on DR. That's why they need the shields and defense feats.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Iron Heroes Errata

Thanks.

 

[DrSpunj]

You also have to consider attack challenges for bonus damage or Power Attack. If the Armiger's defense is low (especially from defense challenges), then foes can easily chew through all his extra DR with Power Attack - possibly at 2 for 1 or more. You take -6 defense to get 3 DR, the enemy can take -6 attack for +12 damage. The Armiger needs a high enough defense to make PA and offensive challenges unattractive, because those attacks can really mess up people that rely on DR. That's why they need the shields and defense feats.

That's a good point, and there's obviously a balance to be found there in any given combat, but I think the Armiger would usually be better off not using a Defensive Challenge when facing such a Power Attacking opponent. As you say, -6 Defense for +3 DR just isn't worth it if they can effectively keep the same odds of hitting with a -6 Attack for +12 damage. You come out +9 damage behind every time, which means the Armiger's better off leaving his AC up there and doesn't have to mess around with the Shields & Defense feats at all. When he does get hit by a Power Attacker he's going to get tokens more quickly, so in that sense it actually helps him to forego the Defensive Challenge.

But the Shield & Defense feats continue to essentially screw up his chances at absorbing damage from every non-Power Attacking opponent out there (and I'd expect the majority to not be using Power Attack feats) and it also leaves his feat slots free for some offensive oomph, which I think most would agree he can use. Remember, the Armor Mastery feats play right into his schtick, so there's where I'd expect most Armigers to focus a lot of their feats. That doesn't leave too many to pick up some other tricks to spice his play up a bit. Using even more feat slots to play further with his Defensive side just seems to corral him into the One-Trick Pony show IMO.

Again, I haven't seen one in play at all, so I'm looking for opinions from those that have. I'd appreciate a little background to let me know what level(s) the Armiger was, what enemies he was up against, what his presence allowed his party members to do with their classes, etc. We've seen quite a few posts from those on the "Armiger is okay" side, with good thoughts, but I've not seen anyone identify themselves as an Armiger player or DM.

Thanks,

DrSpunj

 

[Ruvion]

I am more than tempted to house rule the armiger before even seeing one in action...it is such a dull class when it is very difficult at best to use any of his token based ability (except for the indomitable wall of iron of course).

Based on the discussion going on in the IH board...maybe the following change to the class would 'fix' the armiger's token ability nicely:

Armor pool: Starting at level 3, the armiger starts with a pool of armor token equal to his damage reduction roll in the beginning of combat. He gains 1 armor token for every 5 points of damage absorbed by his armor, 1 armor token for every attack that miss (ranged or melee), or 2 tokens for every round he takes no damage while threatened (this is in additional to all other armor token gathering methods). At level 7 to 14 the armiger gains 4 tokens for every round he takes zero damage while threatened and at level 15 and higher the armiger gains 6 tokens for every round he takes nil damage while threatened. You can’t simply ignore the armiger once he melees you (there are consequences).

This would create a token heavy class. It may well be a bad idea. Shrug.

More than anything though I wish he had a 'taunt' ability that provoke a foe to make a Will save or attack.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Ruvion, I'm also starting to think that some modification to the Armiger's token accumulation scheme is necessary. I'd like to hear from anyone with experience playing one at low, mid, and high levels first.

I like your suggestions except for the 'taking no damage while threatened' token boost. Especially at high levels, I doubt this will happen very often.