Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?

[ProfessorCirno]

Anti-heroes being played out depends on where you nerd. I don't think anyone who reads comics is even remotely interested in anti-heroes at this point, and I think it is apt to say the 90's DID give a larger swing in anti-heroism in part because of the rush on western comics. Thus why a lot of people are really burned out on it.

Also, it's really, really easy to make a really bad anti-hero. I'd say it's far easier to do that then to make a bad paladin-esque character.

 

[Corjay]

The fact is, the anti-hero syndrome now has a reason to exist. What made the OT Star Wars so popular was its focus on rebellion, a common theme in the late 70's and early 80's. PT was popular (despite its sad writing and directing) as national pride was the norm, and EpIII came along just as Bush was beginning to lose his constituency. There is prime ground in identifying with one's time, and if there were ever a need for an anti-hero, it's now. People are sour about their current situation, not just in the united states, but around the world. They want figures to identify with, because they feel downtrodden. If you think the anti-hero is played out now, then you're going to be absolutely sick and tired of them a decade from now. Perhaps at that time it will swing around full circle to the need for puritanical heroes. But these dark times are most certainly not it.

 

[Hussar]

On Dune being SF.

Repeating myself here, but, it's not setting but THEME that makes Dune SF. The question of what it means to be human in the face of omnicience. If Dune were fantasy, that question would never be explored. It would be taken as given and move forward from there. However, Dune IS SF. It examines in great detail what it means to be human when faced with ultimate knowledge. Are the Atredies (sp) even human anymore? What is free will if the knowledge is perfectly known? All of these are classic SF themes.

That's why I use thematic distinctions between genre. Setting wise, sure, you could draw some serious parallels between Dune and Fantasy. I don't deny that. But, thematically, it's not fantasy.

Fantasy, as a genre, deals with with wish fufillment. That's why I place Star Wars square into fantasy. It's pure wish fufillment - the "ordinary farm boy" leaves the farm and saves the galaxy, while becoming incredibly, personally powerful. About the only more wish fufilling you could get would be if Leia wasn't his sister.

Contact is not about wish fufilment - it examines (rather slowly and excruciatingly) how our world would react to the existence of aliens. "Meeting the other" is pretty much a stock SF theme.

That's why I don't really go into hard vs soft SF. The differences are there, for sure, and SF is certainly divisible into smaller sub-genre. But, thematically, they usually share a great deal. Take an element, a development (omniscience, computer controls, transcendence, whatever) and examine how that element or development relates to how we conceive of humanity.

Fantasy, OTOH, takes some element and simply uses it as a tool to resolve the plot. The existence of magic in LOTR is not examined at all. It's simply taken as a given and then the societies look an awful lot like real world ones. It's classic Campbell hero's journey.

As an aside, for me, this is why I like fantasy RPG's and not SF ones. Examination of humanity is interesting to read about, but, not so much fun to play. Most SF games devolve into D&D with space ships. If I wanted that, I'd play D&D. Which I do and it makes me happier.

 

[Hussar]

On the anti-hero.

Guys, if you're going to use a term, learn what it actually means.

Being a tiefling is NOT an anti-hero. Anti-heroes are evil. Not just a dirty or angsty sort of hero. Anti-heroes are flat out evil. Elric is a prime example.

Having a bad childhood does not make for an anti-hero. Tieflings are outcasts, not anti-heroes.

 

[Fenes]

Wiki disagrees with your opinion that anti-heros are evil.

 

[Maggan]

Guys, if you're going to use a term, learn what it actually means.

The definition I've heard includes Thomas Covenant, Han Solo and Indiana Jones, among others. So the "anti-heroes are evil" is new to me.

/M

 

[Corjay]

Edit.

 

[Fenes]

Also consider that the Fantasy market is very, very big. We have a lot of sub-genres, and a lot of media (novels, computer games, tv series, movies, anime). I would dare to guess that the average "Fantasy fan" does not consider the same things "far out" than the fantasy fan that started with Tolkien 20, 30 years ago.

 

[hong]

The anti-hero is so PLAYED. That's one of the problems with 4th E -- it's stuck in the mid-1990s geekiness mindset of its creators. I so don't need more 1990s.

Huh? WoW came out in 2004.

 

[Corjay]

I made a new thread for the Sci-Fi/Fantasy discussion. Please continue that discussion there.