Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?

[Ruin Explorer]

I think the part of those movies that makes them sell so many tickets is the johhny depp part, and not so much the hero or anti-hero bit.

Also, what's her face is hot.

Johnny sells a lot of tickets to any movie, but Jack Sparrow sells more than Johnny normally does, and this is because it's such a wonderfully insane, over-the-top, larger-than-life character who is not just a "good guy".

If he was purely heroic, he would be far less interesting and far less broadly appealling. I mean, imagine Johnny Depp playing Orlando Bloom's role. You think as many tickets would have been sold? I'm telling you, they wouldn't. Equally, without a good guy to balance things out and act as a "straight man", I don't think Johnny's role would have worked so well. So both worked in this case.

The key to understanding the broad appeal and international success of PotC (which cannot be attributed "Pirates are cool!" alone, as every other pirate movie in the last thirty years has been fairly unsuccessful) is that whilst virtually every character, from Elizabeth Swann to Lord Cutler Beckett is "morally compromised" on some greater or lesser level (possibly excepting Will Turner), they almost all have some kind of redeeming feature or likeable trait. This potentially increases the audiences emotional investment in what are, otherwise kind of lengthy, semi-nonsensical films, as they identify with both heroes and villains, and indeed the last Pirates films makes great play of a sort of shell game with who is "good" and who is "bad" and what exactly is going to ensue, who is going to backstab who, etc.

Hussar - Well, exactly. If someone doesn't think Jack Sparrow counts as an anti-hero, they probably should avoid using the term or trying to understand why others use it. Jack Sparrow is likeable, not particularly smart or good. He's basically a human cat, in that he doesn't love anyone much, but is good at faking it for benefits, tends to fall on his feet, and makes his mistakes look like intentional decisions. He's certainly also got a strong degree of "low cunning", but not really much in the way of genuine cleverness. If you hate cats, you probably hate Jack Sparrow.

The days of angsty '90s emo "anti-heroes" are long gone, but that doesn't mean that are no more anti-heroes. Quite the contrary. Indeed, if anything, the general boundary between hero and anti-hero has become rather more blurred.

 

[Corjay]

Wow, how far will you guys go to not call someone evil?

This guy sold his soul to the devil so he could be a captain. He betrays everyone around him. Good nature? What good nature? Even cleverness? When is he actually clever?

That's not, "not good", that's evil.

See, angsty jerk is NOT an anti-hero. It's just an angsty jerk.

At what point do my statements contradict what you're saying here? And by what definition is an anti-hero not evil? Did I not say that he was a "bad guy who is after his own ends" or that "he's not exactly the prince of goody-two-shoes heroes"? How does this not describe someone evil? Just because "he does good when it's most important" does not make him not evil. Dude, you have got to learn who's arguing for or against what. And you should learn the definition of an anti-hero. A bad guy that fights in a way that benefits a cause is an anti-hero. It was Jack Sparrow that brought down Davy Jones and the wicked power-hungry administrator of the Indian Trade Company. What he did to help Will Turner throughout the series, and even after betraying him and helping Elizabeth Swan save Will, while making the occasional self-sacrifice, all point to him as an anti-hero.

 

[Scribble]

Johnny sells a lot of tickets to any movie, but Jack Sparrow sells more than Johnny normally does, and this is because it's such a wonderfully insane, over-the-top, larger-than-life character who is not just a "good guy".

If he was purely heroic, he would be far less interesting and far less broadly appealling. I mean, imagine Johnny Depp playing Orlando Bloom's role. You think as many tickets would have been sold? I'm telling you, they wouldn't.

Probably not... Depp specifically made the role Hunter S Thompson meets Keith Richards because he said he had no idea how to play a pirate, and figured they would have been the "rock stars" of their time.

But equally do you think the movie would have sold as well if you had a no name actor playing the role?

All I'm saying is for the average viewer, Johhny Depp + Orlando Bloom + whats her face + over the top Disney Action means lots of tickets sold.

In any case, I don't think the success of PoTC indicates that Anti-Heros are better selling points then heros. The movie called for an anti-hero, so yeah if you put a do-good all the time super man style hero in there, it wouldn't make any sense.


It's the story that sells a movie, not whether it's a story about an anti-hero or a hero. A compelling story is a compelling story.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In any case, I don't think the success of PoTC indicates that Anti-Heros are better selling points then heros.

Did anyone say that? Please quote where they did, or realize that your are accidentally straw-man'ing. I know I didn't. I said that anti-heroes sure as hell didn't hurt a movie and that most really huge franchises have some anti-hero-types among their leads.

It's the story that sells a movie, not whether it's a story about an anti-hero or a hero. A compelling story is a compelling story.

Agreed. Generally stories that make people seem real and easy to relate to are more compelling, and it's easier to do that with a character who has some, or even extensive, flaws. Note necessarily an actual "anti-hero", but it's not uncommon. As I said, though, "flawed hero" is ever more common, to the point where it's hard to tell exactly when enough flaws and anti-heroic behaviour have built up to call them an "anti-hero".

PS - I don't think Orlando Bloom and Kiera Knightley innately sell that many tickets, tbh. I agree that without The Depp, PotC wouldn't have been a huge hit, because I know that his presence was the specific reason many people gave a "pirate"-themed movie a chance rather than just ignoring it.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I always thought "anti-heroes," while being partly defined by their lack of altruism, were also defined by their subversion of capability that most heroes have. In other words, they aren't as strong, charismatic, or sympathetic/empathetic as traditional heroes.

See: Deckard (Blade Runner)

 

[Corjay]

But equally do you think the movie would have sold as well if you had a no name actor playing the role?

Yes. Absolutely. If the actor is as handsome and charismatic. Cary Elwes was a virtual unknown when he turned Princess Bride into a lasting international cultural phenomenon. All you need is the right person in the role. Pirates of the Caribbean became a phenomenon because the right story was melded with the right leading actor, and there is always more than one right leading actor. Pirates of the Caribbean was great because it was a great story. No matter how great Johnny made the role, there's no way he could turn a bad or even just good movie into a great movie. All a great actor can do is make a great movie its best.

 

[Corjay]

I always thought "anti-heroes," while being partly defined by their lack of altruism, were also defined by their subversion of capability that most heroes have. In other words, they aren't as strong, charismatic, or sympathetic/empathetic as traditional heroes.

See: Deckard (Blade Runner)

I'm afraid you're confusing an anti-hero for an underdog.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm afraid you're confusing an anti-hero for an underdog.

I'm talking about the subversion of the hero archetype, not necessarily a weakening of it, sorry.

 

[The Little Raven]

But equally do you think the movie would have sold as well if you had a no name actor playing the role?

Never forget the lesson of Star Wars.

 

[haakon1]

Wow, how far will you guys go to not call someone evil?

This guy sold his soul to the devil so he could be a captain. He betrays everyone around him. Good nature? What good nature? Even cleverness? When is he actually clever?

That's not, "not good", that's evil.

I've only seen the first movie. He is clever twice:
1) When he steals the ship to have the Interceptor chase him, so he can steal it.
2) At the end, when he does a trick where he steals the coin, gets the blood on it in some tricky way, and uses confusion over whether the curse is on or off to beat the baddies. I forget exactly what he does, but it made me smile as his clever chicanery.

I'd say he's Chaotic for sure, but if he's CE, it's somehow "not in a bad way", as he never harms Will Turner or the governor's daughter.

See, angsty jerk is NOT an anti-hero. It's just an angsty jerk.

You are using the term correctly, as a term of literary criticism.

But somehow, in popular culture, anti-hero has taken on a second meaning of "angsty jerk", Spider-Man only in black, etc. TVtropes actually has a thing on "90s anti-hero" that basically describes the angsty jerk uber badass characters. They think it comes from comics, but I don't know for sure -- I do know it's a 1990s thing.