Is D&D Entering a New Golden Age?

Sales of the hobby game market are on the rise, with tabletop role-playing games increasing along with other tabletop games. With a new Wizards of the Coast CEO in place who values Dungeons & Dragons as much as Magic: The Gathering and a movie on the horizon, we're starting to see signs that D&D is doing very well indeed. Picture courtesy of Unsplash. The Hobby Market is Doing Well ICv2...

Sales of the hobby game market are on the rise, with tabletop role-playing games increasing along with other tabletop games. With a new Wizards of the Coast CEO in place who values Dungeons & Dragons as much as Magic: The Gathering and a movie on the horizon, we're starting to see signs that D&D is doing very well indeed.

golddice.jpg

Picture courtesy of Unsplash.​

The Hobby Market is Doing Well

ICv2 reported that the hobby market is hitting eye-popping numbers:
Sales of hobby games in the U.S. and Canada topped $1.4 billion in 2016, reaching $1.44 billion, according to a new estimate compiled by ICv2 and reported in Internal Correspondence #92. That’s a 21% total growth rate over 2015, with rates of change ranging from 17% for the slowest-growing category to 29% for the fastest-growing. Growth rates were pulled higher by more rapid growth of hobby games in the mass channel, especially in collectible, board, and card & dice games.
Of those categories, collectible games grew the most, followed by hobby board games and role-playing games. Role-playing games increased the most, by 29%, from $35 million to $45 million. Of the top five RPGs, Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition and Pathfinder retained their first and second position, respectively.

Ancillary RPG markets are doing well too, like non-collectible miniatures. Non-collectible miniature sales were up from $175 million to $205 million, a 17% increase. Star Wars X-Wing led the charge, followed by Warhammer 40K and D&D's Nolzur's Marvels Minis, high-quality unpainted miniatures produced by Wizkids.

Unsurprisingly, Hasbro is benefiting from this bump.

Hasbro's Games Are Doing Well

Hasbro topped $5 billion in revenue for the first time:
Net revenues for the full-year 2016 increased 13% to $5.02 billion versus $4.45 billion in 2015. Excluding a negative $61.0 million impact from foreign exchange, 2016 revenues increased 14%. As reported net earnings for the full-year 2016 increased 22% to $551.4 million, or $4.34 per diluted share, compared to $451.8 million, or $3.57 per diluted share in 2015. Adjusted net earnings for the full-year 2016 were $566.1 million, or $4.46 per diluted share. Adjusted 2016 earnings exclude a pre-tax $32.9 million, or $0.12 per diluted share, non-cash fourth quarter goodwill impairment charge related to Backflip Studios. Adjusted full-year 2016 net earnings compares to 2015 adjusted net earnings of $445.0 million, or $3.51 per diluted share, which exclude a pre-tax gain of $9.6 million from the sale of the Company's manufacturing operations in East Longmeadow, MA and Waterford, Ireland.
Hasbro gaming increased by 23%, reflecting the hobby games market trends:
Hasbro's total gaming category, including all gaming revenue, most notably MAGIC: THE GATHERING and MONOPOLY, totaled $518.7 million for the fourth quarter 2016, up 11%, and $1,387.1 million, up 9%, for the full year 2016. Hasbro believes its gaming portfolio is a competitive differentiator and views it in its entirety.
Note that last sentence. Hasbro experienced a decline in Magic: The Gathering sales, and it's likely the leadership team was eager to share other good news in its gaming segment. That would turn out to be beneficial for D&D.

D&D is Doing Well

Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner did something unusual -- he mentioned Dungeons & Dragons on an investor call. For years, D&D has been overshadowed by Magic: The Gathering's success when Hasbro reported out Wizards of the Coast's wins to investors. The shout-out alone on the Q1 investor call says something about D&D's success:
I also am very happy to see very strong growth for brands like DUNGEONS & DRAGONS and Duel Masters. So, the team at (46:34) has gone to a new storytelling modality for MAGIC and, obviously, impacted the quarter. But they've also done some very good work around DUNGEONS and storytelling and in engagement with that audience. So overall, I would expect that our face-to-face gaming business will continue to perform at a high level and the team's done an absolutely stellar job at both the social media oriented games, as well as some more of our classic games.
Hasbro seems to have a renewed interest in what they term "face-to-face" and "social" games, thanks to its launch of the Hasbro Gaming Crate that focuses on getting people to play together -- a staple of D&D. This is of course Wizards of the Coast's specialty. Investors are noticing.

Jim Cramer on Mad Money led the segment with an old D&D commercial and mentioned the RPG along with Star Wars as brands that allow Hasbro to "bring imagination to life." Cramer interviewed Goldner, who had some nice things to say about D&D:
...and our games business, a raft of great games. Dungeons & Dragons up 50%, Monopoly was of course up, and then of course Magic: The Gathering was up. So great strength in games, 6% growth, 20% growth in the gaming category overall...both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons are on our Twitch programming... Dungeons & Dragons did a very special Twitch channel that they launched with the fans. We've had millions of views on Twitch around Dungeons & Dragons. We're seeing the brand really in resurgence.
So what does this mean for the future of D&D?

The Future of D&D

D&D's demographics have shifted, according to the Daily News, with more female and older players:
While Wizards of the Coast, which manages the D&D franchise, won't share sales figures, reps tell the Daily News that Millennials (ages 25 to 34) presently make up the largest group of D&D players, followed closely by those aged 35 to 44 and 18 to 24 — and up to 30% of these gamers are girls.
The success of Pathfinder, the Old School Renaissance, mainstream fantasy media, and the nostalgia of gamer kids reaching the 35 to 44 age range in creative fields like movies and television is likely a major factor in the renewed interest in D&D. Todd Kenreck explains on Forbes:
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King won 11 Oscars in 2004. 16 million people watched the premiere of season 7 of Game of Thrones this year. A serious interest in cinematic fantasy storytelling has steadily reached a fevered pitch and with the game D&D itself seeing a tremendous resurgence, this the perfect time for a Dungeons & Dragons movie or series that puts acting and story first. Like comic books before them, D&D the role-playing game is filled with stories, art, characters and world building that have been largerly left unused by television or film...The game has had impact on so many of the writers, actors, directors and show-runners making television and film today that is might not be a matter of if, but when.
Will Joe Manganiello pull off a film that does D&D justice? A confluence of events -- the rise of social gaming, nostalgia for D&D, and the increasing accessibility of the D&D brand thanks to live streaming -- might be the perfect time for him to pull it off.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

fjw70

Adventurer
I am choosing to find half the posts in this thread hilarious rather than lose more faith in the RPG community, in this context it was very enjoyable :)

"We are doing amazing! Our main product has consistently been one of the best selling books on Amazon since launch, and it's doing great in B&M stores. In only a fraction of the time it managed to outsell the last few iterations. We have a successful and profitable business model. We've managed to bring in huge numbers of new players and our demographics look great, and our market is growing. Celebrities are coming out of the woodwork to play our games like never before. Millions are watching and listening to people playing our product, this is amazing!"

"Yeah... and where are the action figures? Failure."

I hope we get the action figure with the movie.
 

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happyhermit

Adventurer
I hope we get the action figure with the movie.��

And if we do, then I guess it will be; "Pffft! Back in the day TSR was blowing money on more things than you can shake a stick at, come back when Wotc starts buying latch hook rug kits and maybe we'll talk." :)
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm still rather baffled how anyone can look at things like 5e being in the top 100 on Amazon for THREE YEARS and still be convinced of failure. Good grief, how many books do they have to sell. 7th printing in three years? How is that not fantastic?

Put it in perspective. From The Acaeum, the 1e DMG hit it's seventh print run in 1981. From the 1st print run in 1979. So, yup, going by print runs, 1e is still a bit faster, but, not hugely. And, note, the 8th print run doesn't come out for 1e until 1983.

Now, we have pretty much no idea of how big those print runs are. We really don't. So, this is pretty voodoo numbers here. Totally chicken guts time. But, judging from how fast they bang out a new print run, 5e looks to be on the same pace as 1e during the fad years.

I mean, again, from The Acaeum, the first three print runs were only 40000 copies each in 1e. We're pegging numbers of 5e of several times that.

What evidence is required to show that 5e is doing really, really well?

Put it in perspective. Starfinder is the only non-WotC book in the top ten of Gaming on Amazon. It's pegged at 455 in books. Remember, this is the number 2 company right? As I write this, the D&D Starter Set is sitting at 755 in books. All the WotC core D&D books are in the top 200 of books. IOW, the best selling book from the number two company is selling just a bit better than a 3 year old starter box. Note, that as I write this, 13 of the top 20 best selling Fantasy Games products come from WotC.

How is that not good news for WotC?
 
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happyhermit

Adventurer
...
How is that not good news for WotC?

How is that not good news!?! Let's look at the top 20. Sure, Wotc has 13 of those spots right now, but the real story is with the rest. Not one but TWO Starfinder books in there, a system based on a system based on D&D, Wotc must be crying about those two. What about the other 5 spots?

A critical role setting book, Wotc can't even afford to put out it's own setting books? How bad are they doing when someone like Mr. Mercer has to create their own world?
Two novels, WTH wizards, how are you letting all that copious novel loot go to others, shouldn't you have the market cornered by now?
And the piece de resistance, two VIDEO GAME books! Come on, who has even heard of this "Nintendo" and how does their book about "Zelda" end up squeaking into a top 20 list. Even if it is only at #5000+ in all books, if some small time brand like that can do so well it really goes to show that video games are ruling everything and TTRPGs are DOOMED!

:angel:
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
Statistics come in many forms, some more useful than others. Marketing snippets need to be taken with a grain of salt, especially given that your post is entitled "Is D and D entering a new Golden Age?"

As I review your evidence, I am especially keyed in on anything related to how well D and D 5e is doing as a market share compared to D and D in the 70s and early 80s, when it sure seemed like D and D was huuuuuge as a market share of hobby gaming. Back then it was pretty much wargaming (Avalon Hill and SPI), D and D, and miniatures – also no real video or computer strategy gaming to speak of. People – ordinary people – knew about D and D (and didn’t really think you mean World of Warcraft, League of Legends, or something else).

So my initial gut feeling is that heck no, we are not in a Golden Age – it doesn’t at all feel the same way. But lets see if your evidence contradicts my life experience:

Sales of the hobby game market are on the rise, with tabletop role-playing games increasing along with other tabletop games. With a new Wizards of the Coast CEO in place who values Dungeons & Dragons as much as Magic: The Gathering and a movie on the horizon, we're starting to see signs that D&D is doing very well indeed.

The Hobby Market is Doing Well
ICv2 reported that the hobby market is hitting eye-popping numbers:
Sales of hobby games in the U.S. and Canada topped $1.4 billion in 2016....... That’s a 21% total growth rate over 2015, with rates of change ranging from 17% for the slowest-growing category to 29% for the fastest-growing. Growth rates were pulled higher by more rapid growth of hobby games in the mass channel, especially in collectible, board, and card & dice games.

OK - so according to the data Morrus posted http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?563442-How-big-s-the-RPG-market, rpgs as an industry only constitute 3% of the total sales of hobby games in the U.S. and Canada. So the fact that the hobby game industry overall grew may or may not mean growth for rpgs and/or D and D.

Of those categories, collectible games grew the most, followed by hobby board games and role-playing games. Role-playing games increased the most, by 29%, from $35 million to $45 million. Of the top five RPGs, Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition and Pathfinder retained their first and second position, respectively.

So here we seem to have something solid - a 29% increase in RPG sales with D and D being the highest selling RPG......... Or do we? How much of the RPG market share is D and D? If it is 70%, then clearly any such massive upward tick would indicate D and D is also growing, but what if D and D were only 20% of the market? What if the number 3 RPG is responsible for the growth?

Furthermore, while growth is better than no growth, everything is relative. Even if D and D itself grew by 40% in the last year, what does that mean as far as market share compared to the 80s?

Ancillary RPG markets are doing well too, like non-collectible miniatures. Non-collectible miniature sales were up from $175 million to $205 million, a 17% increase. Star Wars X-Wing led the charge, followed by Warhammer 40K and D&D's Nolzur's Marvels Minis, high-quality unpainted miniatures produced by Wizkids.

Unsurprisingly, Hasbro is benefiting from this bump.
Hasbro's Games Are Doing Well

Hasbro topped $5 billion in revenue for the first time:

Net revenues for the full-year 2016 increased 13% to $5.02 billion versus $4.45 billion in 2015. Excluding a negative $61.0 million impact from foreign exchange, 2016 revenues increased 14%. As reported net earnings for the full-year 2016 increased 22% to $551.4 million, or $4.34 per diluted share, compared to $451.8 million, or $3.57 per diluted share in 2015. Adjusted net earnings for the full-year 2016 were $566.1 million, or $4.46 per diluted share. Adjusted 2016 earnings exclude a pre-tax $32.9 million, or $0.12 per diluted share, non-cash fourth quarter goodwill impairment charge related to Backflip Studios. Adjusted full-year 2016 net earnings compares to 2015 adjusted net earnings of $445.0 million, or $3.51 per diluted share, which exclude a pre-tax gain of $9.6 million from the sale of the Company's manufacturing operations in East Longmeadow, MA and Waterford, Ireland.

Hasbro gaming increased by 23%, reflecting the hobby games market trends:

Hasbro's total gaming category, including all gaming revenue, most notably MAGIC: THE GATHERING and MONOPOLY, totaled $518.7 million for the fourth quarter 2016, up 11%, and $1,387.1 million, up 9%, for the full year 2016. Hasbro believes its gaming portfolio is a competitive differentiator and views it in its entirety.

So: The company that owns D and D is doing well….or, then again, maybe it means they are sucking 23% less than last year – who knows? I guess I would have to know more about what constitutes good and bad profit levels in the industry, what their market share is, etc. But more importantly, how the heck can you argue that data shows anything at all about how D and D itself is doing??

Note that last sentence. Hasbro experienced a decline in Magic: The Gathering sales, and it's likely the leadership team was eager to share other good news in its gaming segment. That would turn out to be beneficial for D&D.
D&D is Doing Well

Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner did something unusual -- he mentioned Dungeons & Dragons on an investor call. For years, D&D has been overshadowed by Magic: The Gathering's success when Hasbro reported out Wizards of the Coast's wins to investors. The shout-out alone on the Q1 investor call says something about D&D's success:

I also am very happy to see very strong growth for brands like DUNGEONS & DRAGONS and Duel Masters. So, the team at (46:34) has gone to a new storytelling modality for MAGIC and, obviously, impacted the quarter. But they've also done some very good work around DUNGEONS and storytelling and in engagement with that audience. So overall, I would expect that our face-to-face gaming business will continue to perform at a high level and the team's done an absolutely stellar job at both the social media oriented games, as well as some more of our classic games.
So they don’t want to talk about Magic or Monopoly, and DO want to talk about D and D and DuelMasters. Therefore its likely that D and D is doing well compared to its other products – and since Hasbro experienced 23% growth, I agree D and D likely showed growth. But growth from what numbers to what numbers? And to what kind of market share? And how does that market share compare to the 70s/80s?

Hasbro seems to have a renewed interest in what they term "face-to-face" and "social" games, thanks to its launch of the Hasbro Gaming Crate that focuses on getting people to play together -- a staple of D&D. This is of course Wizards of the Coast's specialty. Investors are noticing.

So they are promoting a playstyle compatible with one of its games? lol of course they are. No statistics here to help the Golden Age question.

Jim Cramer on Mad Money led the segment with an old D&D commercial and mentioned the RPG along with Star Wars as brands that allow Hasbro to "bring imagination to life." Cramer interviewed Goldner, who had some nice things to say about D&D:

...and our games business, a raft of great games. Dungeons & Dragons up 50%, Monopoly was of course up, and then of course Magic: The Gathering was up. So great strength in games, 6% growth, 20% growth in the gaming category overall...both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons are on our Twitch programming... Dungeons & Dragons did a very special Twitch channel that they launched with the fans. We've had millions of views on Twitch around Dungeons & Dragons. We're seeing the brand really in resurgence.

OK this is the weakest eveidence of all. How many views do other games get? What constitutes a view? Does it include peeps redirected there or only people seeking it out? This all marketing spin mumbo jumbo, nothing to be relied on for evidence of anything really other than “D and D is doing well for Hasbro and is growing.”

(Btw, my earlier conclusion D and D probably had experienced growth was right – 50% - but again FROM what numbers TO what numbers? and to what market share?)

So what does this mean for the future of D&D?
The Future of D&D

D&D's demographics have shifted, according to the Daily News, with more female and older players:

While Wizards of the Coast, which manages the D&D franchise, won't share sales figures, reps tell the Daily News that Millennials (ages 25 to 34) presently make up the largest group of D&D players, followed closely by those aged 35 to 44 and 18 to 24 — and up to 30% of these gamers are girls.


More underwhelming “data.” I could have told you women are 30%-ish of the RPGing world….so what? Why is this good vs. bad?

The success of Pathfinder, the Old School Renaissance, mainstream fantasy media, and the nostalgia of gamer kids reaching the 35 to 44 age range in creative fields like movies and television is likely a major factor in the renewed interest in D&D. Todd Kenreck explains on Forbes:

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King won 11 Oscars in 2004. 16 million people watched the premiere of season 7 of Game of Thrones this year. A serious interest in cinematic fantasy storytelling has steadily reached a fevered pitch and with the game D&D itself seeing a tremendous resurgence, this the perfect time for a Dungeons & Dragons movie or series that puts acting and story first. Like comic books before them, D&D the role-playing game is filled with stories, art, characters and world building that have been largerly left unused by television or film...The game has had impact on so many of the writers, actors, directors and show-runners making television and film today that is might not be a matter of if, but when.

Will Joe Manganiello pull off a film that does D&D justice? A confluence of events -- the rise of social gaming, nostalgia for D&D, and the increasing accessibility of the D&D brand thanks to live streaming -- might be the perfect time for him to pull it off.

Pointing to the fact that something *might* happen (a D and D film) does not constitute evidence of a Golden Age, needless to say.

So I didn’t see anything evidence-wise that actually pointed to a D and D Golden Age in the original post, so lets look at numbers posted elsewhere:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?579618-D-amp-D-5e-nearing-800-000-copies-sold indicates that 800,000 copies of 5e D and D book(s) were sold in the last 3 years. Lets compare to this:


So 750,000 per year in 1984, adjusted upward 33% for population growth, means the today equivalent of 1 million copies a year, compared to 5e’s 270,000 per year. That’s 37% of 1e. Not exactly Golden Age-esque, right? Furthermore, although I don’t have market share analysis data to share, I can tell you that the rpg share of the US/Canada Hobby Gaming market in 1984 was much higher than the 3% it is currently – my guess is that it constituted 25% conservatively. PLUS there was much less video/ computer gaming than now, so the market share of D and D within the combined hobby/gaming industry was MUCH higher than its current 1.2%, – my guess again is that it constituted 25% conservatively.

Put those numbers together and you find D and D 1e was 500 times as much a portion of the combined 1984 hobby/video gaming as 5e is today. And that squares pretty well with how it felt living thru it. There’s really no comparison and it REALLY is demeaning to the legacy of D and D to call this iteration anything of the sort.

Here’s what I think is fair to say about 5e: it is profitable, growing, and is doing much better than 4e. To be fair I think it would be impossible for any current day RPG to have anywhere remotely close to the impact D and D had in its heyday, there are just too many more appealing genres available to the modern gamer.

To borrow and pervert a Lloyd Bensen line: "Sir, I grew up with D and D. I experienced the Golden Age of D and D. I lived the Golden Age. And Sir, let me tell you: this ain't no Golden Age for D and D."
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
I can't help but think nostalgia might be factoring into this *slightly*. There's a lot of flaws and problems in the sixteen or seventeen old Gygax penned modules...
Definitely. The 'classic' modules by Mr. Gygax are incredibly overrated. There may be a few decent ones among them but it's not the ones that are usually mentioned.

What most old-time players have, are memories of great gaming sessions using these adventure modules. But (although that might get me tarred and feathered) that's usually _despite_ these modules being used rather than because. With a good DM even bad adventure modules can be turned into a great experience.
 

Statistics come in many forms, some more useful than others. Marketing snippets need to be taken with a grain of salt, especially given that your post is entitled "Is D and D entering a new Golden Age?"
True. But it helps if valid counter statistics are offered.

As I review your evidence, I am especially keyed in on anything related to how well D and D 5e is doing as a market share compared to D and D in the 70s and early 80s, when it sure seemed like D and D was huuuuuge as a market share of hobby gaming. Back then it was pretty much wargaming (Avalon Hill and SPI), D and D, and miniatures – also no real video or computer strategy gaming to speak of. People – ordinary people – knew about D and D (and didn’t really think you mean World of Warcraft, League of Legends, or something else).
This is pretty shaky stuff.

You're equating D&D and "hobby gaming" with "videogames" and then saying D&D is not in a new golden age because of things like Warcraft. But, even if D&D were selling twice as much as they were at the height of the D&D fad in 1983, they still wouldn't be close to a single video game. To say nothing of other "geeky media" like movies (Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy or Game of Thrones.)
It doesn't seem useful to lump videogames in with "hobby gaming" anymore than it would be to lump in sports.

When you compare D&D to other RPGs, then D&D blows them out of the water. You can see this on the sales chart of Amazon, where D&D compares favourably with regular books, while no other RPG but Starfinder/ Pathfinder comes close. While Starfinder made it up to the Top 100 in books for a weekend, it rapidly shot down, while D&D has been maintaining its position for multiple years.
Beyond that, the other RPG books are seldom even available outside of hobby stores or direct from the manufacturer. You're not going to see many in generic book stores like you will D&D.

So my initial gut feeling is that heck no, we are not in a Golden Age – it doesn’t at all feel the same way. But lets see if your evidence contradicts my life experience:
If statistics have to be taken with a grain of salt, your "gut feeling" requires an entire shaker.

OK - so according to the data Morrus posted http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?563442-How-big-s-the-RPG-market, rpgs as an industry only constitute 3% of the total sales of hobby games in the U.S. and Canada. So the fact that the hobby game industry overall grew may or may not mean growth for rpgs and/or D and D.

So here we seem to have something solid - a 29% increase in RPG sales with D and D being the highest selling RPG......... Or do we? How much of the RPG market share is D and D? If it is 70%, then clearly any such massive upward tick would indicate D and D is also growing, but what if D and D were only 20% of the market? What if the number 3 RPG is responsible for the growth?

Furthermore, while growth is better than no growth, everything is relative. Even if D and D itself grew by 40% in the last year, what does that mean as far as market share compared to the 80s?
No way of knowing for sure. But we can look at who is playing what online:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...20-World-of-Darkness-On-The-Rise#.Wa14Dch97cs
http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...sy-Grounds-Final-Stats-For-2016!#.Wa13Kch97cs
50% of games being played on Roll20 are D&D, and 58% on Fantasy Grounds. Which seems like a lot of gamers are playing non-D&D, the next highest game in both is Pathfinder at 14% and 12% of games.

D&D 5e is not only in the lead, but it's nearest competitor has a third of its market.
And if you look at the number of games on the Roll20 statistics, you can see most games holding steady but D&D 5e skyrocketing from <5,000 to >35,000 in less than three years.
There's no reason to believe this is only digital and the numbers are not close in meat space. So of that $45 million RPG business, D&D 5e is $22-$27 million of it. And D&D likely accounted for $5 million of its 10 million growth. At least.

But keep in mind that in 2013 - according to ICv2 - the RPG market was only $15 million dollars. In the intervening four years it has grown threefold. During that time 5e launched, which is likely not coincidental.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present#.Wa15W8h95aR

So: The company that owns D and D is doing well….or, then again, maybe it means they are sucking 23% less than last year – who knows? I guess I would have to know more about what constitutes good and bad profit levels in the industry, what their market share is, etc. But more importantly, how the heck can you argue that data shows anything at all about how D and D itself is doing??
We bother to look farther back than a single year. Which shows that the RPG industry has been steadily growing.

So I didn’t see anything evidence-wise that actually pointed to a D and D Golden Age in the original post, so lets look at numbers posted elsewhere:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?579618-D-amp-D-5e-nearing-800-000-copies-sold indicates that 800,000 copies of 5e D and D book(s) were sold in the last 3 years. Lets compare to this:

So 750,000 per year in 1984, adjusted upward 33% for population growth, means the today equivalent of 1 million copies a year, compared to 5e’s 270,000 per year. That’s 37% of 1e. Not exactly Golden Age-esque, right?
Did you READ that full thread?
The industry insider said that what he knew as the best selling RPG moved only 800,000. They 1e PHB - or more likely the Red Box - is rumoured to have sold a million copies, but that cannot be verified.
The 750,000 almost certainly refers to the total number of books sold over the year, not just the core book. 750,000 copies worth of Red Boxes, PHBs, DMG, modules, etc.

Furthermore, although I don’t have market share analysis data to share, I can tell you that the rpg share of the US/Canada Hobby Gaming market in 1984 was much higher than the 3% it is currently – my guess is that it constituted 25% conservatively. PLUS there was much less video/ computer gaming than now, so the market share of D and D within the combined hobby/gaming industry was MUCH higher than its current 1.2%, – my guess again is that it constituted 25% conservatively.
25%? You also realize you literally have ZERO information backing up that number beyond what feels right to you.

You're including films in that, right? Hollywood? Television.
Because, keep in mind, the video game industry makes twice as much as the film industry. So if you're including the video game industry as competition for D&D now, you also need to include the box office of 1982-84 when talking about 1e D&D.

The inflation point is a good one. There are more people now, so to have the same percentage of people playing D&D the number of copies sold needs to be that much larger.
Except… this ignore the fact that people could still be playing 1e, 2e, and 3e. Those copies are still there and there is not a 1:1 overlap in sales. While 5e might not not yet be played by the same percentage of North America as 1e, more total people could easily be playing D&D.
The inflation angle does assume that geeks increase at the same rate as

To borrow and pervert a Lloyd Bensen line: "Sir, I grew up with D and D. I experienced the Golden Age of D and D. I lived the Golden Age. And Sir, let me tell you: this ain't no Golden Age for D and D."
It's not YOUR golden age. It's different. There's online games. Streaming platforms. Professional DMs who earn their living running games.
Arguably, just because not as golden for you, doesn't mean the rest of the industry and games isn't finding it damn shiny.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
You're equating D&D and "hobby gaming" with "videogames" and then saying D&D is not in a new golden age because of things like Warcraft. But, even if D&D were selling twice as much as they were at the height of the D&D fad in 1983, they still wouldn't be close to a single video game. To say nothing of other "geeky media" like movies (Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy or Game of Thrones.) It doesn't seem useful to lump videogames in with "hobby gaming" anymore than it would be to lump in sports.

Uhhhh....Lumping gamers together (video games and hobby games) is indeed more valid than lumping in sports. Sorry.

When you compare D&D to other RPGs, then D&D blows them out of the water.....You can see this on the sales chart of Amazon, where D&D compares favourably with regular books, while no other RPG but Starfinder/ Pathfinder comes close.

You are killing me here dude..... Great. D and D kills other RPGs. Congratz. One barely noticeable (in overall GAMING circles) game in 2017 is bigger than another barely noticeable game in 2017, several D and D-like movies have come out in recent years, and an actual D and D movie MIGHT start getting TALKED about being made. Oh, and D and D is getting as many internet hits as that guy that burps really loud. Wow, breathtaking Golden Age indeed.

D and D used to (in the early 80s) be a BIG game in the entire gaming industry!!!!!! THAT was the Golden Age. You could walk down the street and ask a random person if he knew about D and D and if he knew someone who played it, and he's probably say yes on both counts. MANY D and D and D and D-like movies came out ANNUALLY. One of the biggest coalitions on the planet at that time, the religious right, came out against D and D and it was Big News.

It was like the World of Warcraft craze that hit a decade or so ago. Back then average people would know about the game even if they hadn't PLAYED it.

It doesn't look like you were born until the 80s (from your profile), so I can understand your difficulty in understanding my point. But I lived thru D and D's Golden Age. There was a buzz about. Ordinary people in all walks of life knew about the game and had an opinion about it. It wasn't just the top dog in a nigh-irrelevant niche market.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
As I review your evidence...

...OK this is the weakest eveidence of all.

You keep using that word, but I think you're confusing it with "anecdote" and "guess":

So my initial gut feeling is that heck no

But lets see if your evidence contradicts my life experience

my guess again is that it constituted 25% conservatively

And that squares pretty well with how it felt living thru it.

"Sir, I grew up with D and D. I experienced the Golden Age of D and D. I lived the Golden Age.

Lots of folks on these boards remember the 70s, dude. You're not *that* old.

Data beats anecdote 100% of the time. Even circumstantial data beats anecdote. And anecdote beats hunch, guess, and feeling.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
You keep using that word, but I think you're confusing it with "anecdote" and "guess"....Lots of folks on these boards remember the 70s, dude. You're not *that* old.....Data beats anecdote 100% of the time. Even circumstantial data beats anecdote. And anecdote beats hunch, guess, and feeling.

Comparing potential Golden Ages takes data from both eras, something that has not been presented here by ANYONE. I would love to look at data from the 80s that tells us about market shares and such, but it doesn't appear to be forthcoming to aid us in evaluating the Golden Age question here. In the absence of such data, educated guesses, and life experiences/ancedotes are the next best thing we have to use.

If you present data that the number of people smoking is growing, and that we are therefore in a "Smoking Golden Age," I would say waiiiiitttt a minute - even if there was no data available from other eras. I remember people smoked everywhere back in the 70s - on planes, trains, and automobiles, in offices, homes, public buildings, and restaurants, around kids and in hospitals. I would KNOW that today's smoking population was nowhere close, as a percentage of population and in amount smoked, to that of the 70s.

So instead of just dismissing my experiences and guesses, and since you are old enough to have lived through it and been into D and D at the time, how about venturing some guesses based on your experience? Do you think RPGs consisted of only 3% of the hobby gaming industry back then? Do you think that the hobby gaming industry back then had a competitor (for GAMERS) like the video game industry that was almost 100 times larger than the hobby gaming industry at the time? Do YOU think today's D and D is as big a deal to gamers in the USA today as it was in the 80s?
 
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