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Is my Paladin (rebalanced) tank ready?

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Griffon's fine. Gives flying and all. My game playing as a Knight, my friend played as a centaur, also a Knight. We oth used lances and were going for the most obscene charge damage per round possible. It worked out well. For a tank, you really might be best off with a caster as cohort, for spell buffs and/or healing.
 

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Skead

First Post
StreamOfTheSky said:
Griffon's fine. Gives flying and all. My game playing as a Knight, my friend played as a centaur, also a Knight. We oth used lances and were going for the most obscene charge damage per round possible. It worked out well. For a tank, you really might be best off with a caster as cohort, for spell buffs and/or healing.

Very true. Perhaps a Cleric.

What feats? If I was going with the multi-class, I'd stick with the Core Paladin and the Knight class.

I think 3 Paladin for Saves, Immune to Fear, (lay on hands?), and Immune to Diseases, then popping into Knight for pure damage taking and attention focusing.

It says 1/2 level of character class for how many uses of "Knight Taunts", I assume that means Knight and not whatever character you at at the moment?
 
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moritheil

First Post
Skead said:
Now, the Knight class uses best saves against will, but worst for Reflex and Fort. Should I dip 2 (or 3) levels into Paladin for Divine Grace (since my charisma will be high anyways) and maybe Divine Health (and Aura of Courage)?

Aha, now this is the sort of question I love to answer.

Aura of courage's worth is questionable, since for 1000 gp or so you can buy an item that does the same thing (it might be limited to 1/day, but honestly, it's pretty rare that you will use it more than 1/day.)

Divine Grace is the real prize, followed by Turning (at 4th level.) However, flip to the back of the Bo9S prestige class list, and note the Ruby Knight Vindicator. I would strongly recommend this class, if you don't mind adjusting your build to fit it. You only need 1 level of Crusader (take it after your paladin levels) to take it, and it advances both your casting (8/10) and your martial arts, while giving you a few very handy unique abilities.

If you're going to use a mount and be a cleric, I'd suggest going Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 2. Then take RKV levels as you level up.
 

Skead

First Post
moritheil said:
Aha, now this is the sort of question I love to answer.

Aura of courage's worth is questionable, since for 1000 gp or so you can buy an item that does the same thing (it might be limited to 1/day, but honestly, it's pretty rare that you will use it more than 1/day.)

Divine Grace is the real prize, followed by Turning (at 4th level.) However, flip to the back of the Bo9S prestige class list, and note the Ruby Knight Vindicator. I would strongly recommend this class, if you don't mind adjusting your build to fit it. You only need 1 level of Crusader (take it after your paladin levels) to take it, and it advances both your casting (8/10) and your martial arts, while giving you a few very handy unique abilities.

If you're going to use a mount and be a cleric, I'd suggest going Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 2. Then take RKV levels as you level up.

Hmmm, I can see your point about the Aura of Courage.

As stated above, I try to stay away from extremely unique (and perhaps more confusing classes to spare my other fellow players). I like the idea behind Ruby Knight Vindicator, it just seems with the stances, class abilities, etc. It'd be too much for them.

I was thinking of taking 2 or 3 levels of paladin and then move onward to Knight for that role. But it's been stated that it might be best to take 5 levels of Knight then move to paladin, would you agree?
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Skead said:
Very true. Perhaps a Cleric.

What feats? If I was going with the multi-class, I'd stick with the Core Paladin and the Knight class.

I think 3 Paladin for Saves, Immune to Fear, (lay on hands?), and Immune to Diseases, then popping into Knight for pure damage taking and attention focusing.

It says 1/2 level of character class for how many uses of "Knight Taunts", I assume that means Knight and not whatever character you at at the moment?

First, yes. It's based on Knight level. My character never used more than 4 a day, but maybe you'll find more use for them. As for multiclassing, don't ignore paladin spellcasting. With Spell Compendium for spells and Complete Champion for Battle Blessing (cast Pal standard action spells as swift), you've got some really good options. My favorite SpC spells are Rhino's Rush -- swift, your charge attack does x2 damage-- and Find the Gap -- standard, for round/level, your first attack goes against touch AC. For feats, did you mean for you or the Cleric? And if doing Knight at all (and little Paladin), may want to keep the ubermount, depending on what you want.

Let's see...Combat Reflexes, Leadership, [Power Attack, Improved Buckler Defense, Leap Attack] (if using two-handed weapon for damage dealing), Stand Still, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip are all good. Shield Specialization/Ward is helpful. Spirited Charge is amazing if going mounted, just beware of your mount not being able to go in tight spaces. For your mount in this case, Races of Stone has some feats that could help.

Really, though, if you're willing to abandon that variant paladin so readily, I'd advise checking out Crusader. It may be just what you want. Lets you control the area around you (even better than a Knight), survive tremendous assaults, protect allies from would-be hits (shield block maneuver), give an ally a free turn (white raven tactics), and heal people by making melee attacks (several maneuvers for this), and more. If you want to stick with Knight/Pal, level 3 is the best cutoff. I guess it's game-dependent, but I remember my last character with Aura of Courage, two dungeons in a row he had some good laughs as his best friend kept getting frightened and running away.
 

Skead

First Post
StreamOfTheSky said:
First, yes. It's based on Knight level. My character never used more than 4 a day, but maybe you'll find more use for them. As for multiclassing, don't ignore paladin spellcasting. With Spell Compendium for spells and Complete Champion for Battle Blessing (cast Pal standard action spells as swift), you've got some really good options. My favorite SpC spells are Rhino's Rush -- swift, your charge attack does x2 damage-- and Find the Gap -- standard, for round/level, your first attack goes against touch AC. For feats, did you mean for you or the Cleric? And if doing Knight at all (and little Paladin), may want to keep the ubermount, depending on what you want.

Let's see...Combat Reflexes, Leadership, [Power Attack, Improved Buckler Defense, Leap Attack] (if using two-handed weapon for damage dealing), Stand Still, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip are all good. Shield Specialization/Ward is helpful. Spirited Charge is amazing if going mounted, just beware of your mount not being able to go in tight spaces. For your mount in this case, Races of Stone has some feats that could help.

Really, though, if you're willing to abandon that variant paladin so readily, I'd advise checking out Crusader. It may be just what you want. Lets you control the area around you (even better than a Knight), survive tremendous assaults, protect allies from would-be hits (shield block maneuver), give an ally a free turn (white raven tactics), and heal people by making melee attacks (several maneuvers for this), and more. If you want to stick with Knight/Pal, level 3 is the best cutoff. I guess it's game-dependent, but I remember my last character with Aura of Courage, two dungeons in a row he had some good laughs as his best friend kept getting frightened and running away.

You were pretty good on with the Knight suggestion, so I'll look into Crusader.
 

moritheil

First Post
Skead said:
You were pretty good on with the Knight suggestion, so I'll look into Crusader.

I also strongly recommend Crusader. The paladin's save bonuses are superior, but the Crusader is better at trading blows.
 

Skead

First Post
I looked into the Crusader class and as cool and interesting it seems, I just think it'd be too much for the group to grasp onto.

So far my build looks like this, let me know if you guys disagree or can improve. I had 19,000 gold to work with, and bought
Mithril Full Plate (+1)
Tower Shield (+1) Do fighters take a minus to hit when using this?
Cloak of Charisma (+2)
Amulet of Natural Armor (+1),
Bracers of Protection (+1),


Human Fighter (1) / Paladin (2) / Knight (4)
-- ECL: 7 --

AC: 30 Without Dodge / Shield Block (32 with)

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 20 (for # of taunts a day, DC checks, and saves)

Fort: 12 (+ 2 if Great Fortitude is taken)
Ref: 9
Will: 14

Current Level:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 - Fighter (1) -3 Feats- Dodge, Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization
2 - Paladin (1) - Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite 1/Per Day
3 - Paladin (2) - Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
4 - Knight (1) -1 Feat- Imp. Initiative? Knight Points x8, Challenge +1
5 - Knight (2) -1 Feat- Mounted Combat, Shield Block +1
6 - Knight (3) -1 Feat- Leadership, Bulwark of Defense
7 - Knight (4) - Armor Mastery (Med), Test of Mettle
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Future Progression:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
8 - Knight (5) -1 Feat- Greater Fortitude? Vigilant Defender, +1 stat
9 - Knight (6) -1 Feat- Suggestion for Feat? Shield Ally
10 - Knight (7) - Fighting Challenge
11 - Knight (8) - Call to Battle
12 - Knight (9) -1 Feat- Armor Mastery (Heavy)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried to get a good balance of saves for casters, and armor for melee. Hopefully really focusing on "challenging" as opposed to damage output to keep attention.
 
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roguerouge

First Post
How about Short haft, which allows you to shorten up on a reach weapon and attack right next to you? Great for the Knight, if you dip into that class.
 

Folly

First Post
Fighters take the -2 penalty for a Tower shield as well.

The only thing I can add to this conversation would be, that if you do end up going to 4th paladin (turning), then an excellent feat would be Divine Warding (i think that is the name) from Complete Warrior. It lets you add your chr bonus to you shield bonus for minutes per (level or chr i forget which). With your original stats that would be an additional +5 AC.
 

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