Is open source a losing proposition for new rpg's

[bennet]

Linux was open source, redhat and other companies did gr8 with it. Linus did ok.

But for ttrpg games, is it a lose lose situation where the game doesn't bring in much money because most people choose the free download?

Dungeon World is open source (creative commons). The only reason I've heard of it is the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast. Do you think the dudes that wrote it made any money at all?

Seems to be the biggest problem with making a free game is that there is no revenue for subsequent art or marketing. Unless it hits some kind of critical mass and people want to throw money at it, but then you are competing with everyone who has a free license?

Would DCC have wider adoption if people didn't have email them and get a 3rd party license?

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think Dungeon World did reasonably well, yeah.

I would say look to the Mothership RPG as a pretty good example. They put out their core rules as a "pay what you want" PDF. Then they released a handful of supplements, and supported some third party supplements, too.

This past year they launched a Kickstarter for a boxed set with revised core rules and a keeper's guide and monster manual type book, along with some tokens and maps. It earned over $1.4 million.

I think there's a way to make these kinds of models work, for sure. There are plenty of ways for them not to work, too.

 

[bennet]

This past year they launched a Kickstarter for a boxed set with revised core rules and a keeper's guide and monster manual type book, along with some tokens and maps. It earned over $1.4 million.

How much is profit I wonder with these books, after paying for the art and producing the physical book, shipping, as high as 50% or more like 10% I wonder.

 

[Yora]

In the case of Dungeon World, I personally think it's not a very good game to begin with. If the market for an idea isn't there, the monetization model won't make it a success.
There's of course a difference in how much profit a creator can make with the market that is there, but increasing the price is not going to make the the product more popular. (Though there's an exception to that rule for luxury brand, where displaying how much you can spend on a product with cheaper alternative is the main appeal of said product.)

 

[Crusadius]

How much is profit I wonder with these books, after paying for the art and producing the physical book, shipping, as high as 50% or more like 10% I wonder.

For this kickstarter shipping is to be charged via backerkit so shipping costs aren't counted in the final pledge total. So the amount collected goes towards only paying for the production of the product. And the game itself has already been released as previews etc so I'm not sure how much additional artwork needs to be paid for.

 

[hawkeyefan]

How much is profit I wonder with these books, after paying for the art and producing the physical book, shipping, as high as 50% or more like 10% I wonder.

I'm not sure. Their funding goal was $20,000. Given that they had the initial free edition, a lot of the work was already done. I expect there were additional art costs to create the Keeper's Manual and the Unconfirmed Sightings book, and both of those books needed formatting and writing.

But I have to imagine that they've made some profit. They didn't provide a breakdown of the production costs as I've seen some kickstarters do, but Sean McCoy did mention in one of the updates that they were the highest unlicensed RPG kickstarter, and that the success meant that they'd be able to produce Mothership books for years.

 

[Crusadius]

Dungeon World is open source (creative commons). The only reason I've heard of it is the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast. Do you think the dudes that wrote it made any money at all?

With regards to Dungeon World, just remember that the original release was funded via Kickstarter.

So I think they made money, and the PDF is still being sold via drivethrurpg so it may still be generating income.

 

[Morrus]

Works for D&D. Works for Pathfinder. I’m going to go with “no”.

 

[Umbran]

But for ttrpg games, is it a lose lose situation where the game doesn't bring in much money because most people choose the free download?

The free download doesn't have to be in a format that is table-use friendly, so I don't think that's really the determiner.

I expect the biggest issue for a new, small game, from someone who isn't a known designer, or working with a fan-favorite franchise, isn't about making money in sales. It is about your game being heard of at all.

Works for D&D. Works for Pathfinder. I’m going to go with “no”.

So, what you may demonstrate here is that it works for the biggest games - both of which were D&D, and had large, pre-made markets before the OGL existed. That doesn't really speak to how well it would work for a new, small game.

 

[Akasen]

I'm just gonna start from the top here and say that the OGL, or any such deal, neither makes or breaks some new RPG.

Let's really focus on what the OGL is really meant to do here, especially for WotC in like the early 2000s. The real goal of the OGL is NOT to make a free game, it's to allow other developers to make content for your game or system. That being things like custom source books, new race books, possibly your own game that you can proudly say is a "d20 system game" if you really felt like getting the trademark slapped on your book.

Bringing up Linux as an example kind of misses the point of FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) and why the model works under the various licenses such as the GPL, MIT, or other such license.

The major thing you get from your software being free and open source is the mere fact that people can contribute back to the project, and their contribution helps everyone who uses that software. In the case of the Linux kernel, many distributions exist that use the Linux kernel, as do many companies and their servers. And as such, when Amazon puts in work to improve the kernel, every company and user benefits from this.

For something like D&D, especially now with the dmsguild, the fact that if I so desired I could find probably thousands of materials published specifically for 5e, whether it's adventures, classes, weird rules, and more, is really the thing WotC ideally wants. It's brand being so powerful it doesn't have to publish new materials for their game left and right themselves. That's the (ideal) contributing back for WotC with their OGL is various devs and publishers bringing new material to 5e that helps give continued life to brand.

Until D&D5.5e releases in like two years and suddenly it's the end times. Or 6e comes around and we have to see if Level Up is alive and kicking

Heart of the matter: Does having the core rules of your game free to read and distribute hurt your game? I don't think so. If your game has horribly explained rules, or just frustrating mechanics, it might not catch on. If said game has remarkeably interesting lore to it and it is built on this system with more inside if you purchase the core book for 20 USD for the pdf and 150 for the high quality POD book? I mean maybe it will catch on.

Fact is it's all chance if something catches on or not. The price tag doesn't really matter if no one is interested in your game for whatever reason. And I suppose core to this is what your success criteria is, cause I'd think Dungeon World to be moderately successful; the fact i've heard of it on a number of occasions while people discuss RPG stories gives me the impression it's done solidly .