D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[Zeromaru X]

I think the designers for planescape were different than mnay of the setting books and if the bosses asked them to reconcile it, its not going to make everyone happy. If you follow films, Kevin Feige is probably thinking how is he going to manage to bring the Xmen into the MCU since he has challenges there (which are worth a hell of lot more money due to how much the MCU makes). this isnt new, especially as lore expands out.

You can reconcile things without being condescending. That's my point.

 

[Parmandur]

Is the point thought that the planescpse books are wrong, they people of the planes just don’t realize it.

Meta-Berks, the lot of them.

 

[StarFyre]

You can reconcile things without being condescending. That's my point.

right but thats subjective. i didnt find it condescending. i read it in the POV of them. There's even lots of quotes from planar characters, and proverbs etc in use. in a way its different reading many of the PS sourcebooks compared to the other setting books - a different tone/style.

i just assumed, ok cool. they know what they are doing. for years i heard stuff like tiamat, takhisis, etc. so cool, this stuff should answer questions but instead, it made many fans and also made others angry hehehe .

SF

 

[Hussar]

Sure they are, to an extent. They are just names.

Well, they're both bad places? I guess? But, one is a roiling realm of chaos and the other is Hell. Considering there's an entire product line that makes a pretty darn big deal about the difference between the two, I'd say that they aren't really interchangeable.

 

[Hussar]

So this is explained in Planescape and i use much of the 2e expanded lore (planescape) as the basis for my games but i recall back then at conventions etc a lot of hardcore fans of the setting, FR, DL, etc didnt like what planescape did.

One of the planescape books explained the beliefs of the people from those settings. Basically, Krynn is like a younger world and has less super archmages. they arent as experienced in relation to exploring the planes, etc. Thus. people from krynn believe and say takhisis is in the abyss cause to them all those planes are the same. In reality, they are wrong, Takhisis/tiamat is in Baator. It then talks about all the settings. Dark sun, toril, greyhawk etc. Essentially, anything that is a reality they dont understand on krynn, they just say Abyss.

Any of the planescape books, then use this as their basis. its one reason why planars call people clueless who are not from the planes.

Further details of the multiverse and its creation are hinted/talked about in other planescape books, culminating in lore in Dead Gods, Die Vecna Die, Guide to Hell...

NOTE: im not saying you should like it. im just saying this is how TSR retconned/reconciled all the content into a whole. I personally do as i need all that type of deep multiversal lore/where magic comes from, etc for my campaign (which im sure most games dont need to delve into) so i like this basis it gives instead of having to make it all up. that said, i do borrow some stuff from 3e/4e and intermix - just 2e planescape is the basis. Im looking fwd to the dragon book as dragons are one place where i could use some suggestions on fitting some of their lore so ideas here may help

regards,

SF

And people wonder why I dislike Planescape so much. "Hey, folks, guess what? All that stuff you thought about your favorite setting? Yeah, you were wrong. We're now going to rewrite all that lore and overlay it with this really annoying patois and going forward we're going to ignore anything that was written beforehand."

But, fair enough. What's done is done.

 

[StarFyre]

And people wonder why I dislike Planescape so much. "Hey, folks, guess what? All that stuff you thought about your favorite setting? Yeah, you were wrong. We're now going to rewrite all that lore and overlay it with this really annoying patois and going forward we're going to ignore anything that was written beforehand."

But, fair enough. What's done is done.

the best part of gaming; the stuff you dont like about it, is one of the reasons i love it subjective

SF

 

[Hussar]

I find it ridiculous not to link Tiamat with Takhisis, but if they official lore said otherwise that would be fine. They would still be linked for me.

Thing is, it does have impacts.

Does your Dragonlance have devils, for example? In WotL era, 1e modules, there are no devils appearing. Not one. I cannot think of a single canonical appearance of a devil in any of the fiction I read either. Heck, even Demogorgon has a canonical appearance in Dragonlance, but, not a single Devil. Granted, demons don't make much of an appearance, but, they do appear. Abishai and various other demons are present when we see Takhisis. IIRC, they appear in the very late end of the modules as well.

So, this was something that set DL apart from other D&D settings. You flat out don't have devils, or yugoloths (once named daemons), or a bunch of other monsters in the setting. That niche was inhabited by Draconians. Which was cool. In a setting about dragons, we don't really need devils. But, once DL was folded into the Great Wheel through Planescape, now Takhisis is no longer Queen of the Abyss (despite being probably one of the most powerful 1e monsters ever printed - some 1000 hp+ IIRC). Now she's just some minor godling hanging out in Hell? WTF? So, does that mean Asmodeus is her boss? After all, he's the King of Hell and always has been.

The point being, the later retcons from Planescape created far more questions than they answered and were completely unnecessary. There was no real need to tie Krynn to the other settings. TSR just wanted to have an in game means of yanking concepts from one setting and plunking them down in another without having to explain anything. How did we get X here? Oh, well, planar color pool. Poof, now we have Kender in every setting. Yay! :grrr:

 

[StarFyre]

Thing is, it does have impacts.

Does your Dragonlance have devils, for example? In WotL era, 1e modules, there are no devils appearing. Not one. I cannot think of a single canonical appearance of a devil in any of the fiction I read either. Heck, even Demogorgon has a canonical appearance in Dragonlance, but, not a single Devil. Granted, demons don't make much of an appearance, but, they do appear. Abishai and various other demons are present when we see Takhisis. IIRC, they appear in the very late end of the modules as well.

when the FR source books introduced the Wild Goose Inn in Arabel in the...late 80s/early 90s? something like that, that was a precursor to the flood gates opening. Via that inn, real name The World Serpent Inn, ppl could travel anywhere from within its doors if you knew how to enter the true Serpent Inn (from the outside it says Wild Goose).

Maybe they had plans to link stuff but due to licenses, and creators etc they couldnt until Planescape came around and by that time it was more complex.

Just a thought.

SF

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Thing is, it does have impacts.

Does your Dragonlance have devils, for example?

I don;t know we never encounter any.

In WotL era, 1e modules, there are no devils appearing. Not one. I cannot think of a single canonical appearance of a devil in any of the fiction I read either. Heck, even Demogorgon has a canonical appearance in Dragonlance, but, not a single Devil. Granted, demons don't make much of an appearance, but, they do appear. Abishai and various other demons are present when we see Takhisis. IIRC, they appear in the very late end of the modules as well.

Wait, aren't draconians metallic dragon eggs possessed by Abishai (devil) souls?

So, this was something that set DL apart from other D&D settings. You flat out don't have devils, or yugoloths (once named daemons), or a bunch of other monsters in the setting. That niche was inhabited by Draconians. Which was cool. In a setting about dragons, we don't really need devils. But, once DL was folded into the Great Wheel through Planescape, now Takhisis is no longer Queen of the Abyss (despite being probably one of the most powerful 1e monsters ever printed - some 1000 hp+ IIRC). Now she's just some minor godling hanging out in Hell? WTF? So, does that mean Asmodeus is her boss? After all, he's the King of Hell and always has been.

Regardless, this is not relevant to "our" Dragonlance. Dragonlance has what we say it is whether they be demons or devils or daemons. What TSR or Wotc says has no impact on that. Heck, when we ran it Takhisis and her minions won, defeated the heroes and ruled Kyrnn and I don't think we ever encountered a demon or devil (except in the guise of a draconian). Whether Tiamat was from the Abyss or Hell made no difference. I mean our DM had wanted to reconcile it, he could have said that the Abyss is a generic name of any fiendish plan (lower planes in the wheel speak) and all demons and devils are subservient to Takhisis

The point being, the later retcons from Planescape created far more questions than they answered and were completely unnecessary. There was no real need to tie Krynn to the other settings. TSR just wanted to have an in game means of yanking concepts from one setting and plunking them down in another without having to explain anything. How did we get X here? Oh, well, planar color pool. Poof, now we have Kender in every setting. Yay! :grrr:

I can't speak to planescape, we never played in that setting

 

[dave2008]

Well, they're both bad places? I guess? But, one is a roiling realm of chaos and the other is Hell. Considering there's an entire product line that makes a pretty darn big deal about the difference between the two, I'd say that they aren't really interchangeable.

Sure they are. I know of at least one group that uses demons and devils he Abyss and Hell interchangeably. They are one place and demons and devils are essentially the same thing, there is no blood war, etc. On top of that I have heard a few people on these forums say similar things about their own campaigns.

Truth be told, I as the DM have a particular idea about the outer planes, devils, demons, celestials, etc., but it is mostly hidden from my players. I would guess at least 50% of my players have no idea what the difference between a devil and a demon is. It is just not relevant. It is very easy to label all the lower planes as the "Pit" or something and lump them all together as one realm of evil with many different flavors.