D&D 5E Is the Tarrasque tough enough?

[KarinsDad]

Uprooted trees and rocks pulled from the earth is exactly the sort of stuff a Tarrasque can easily toss around. Indeed, directly in it's abilities it's listed as a siege monster that deals double damage to objects, and it's described as rising from beneath the earth to wreck destruction on everything in it's path. There is nothing at all outside the rules to say it uses a boulder as an improvised weapon, which is similar to the actual Giant weapon of a rock, and therefore can be treated as such a rock.

...

Furthermore your idea of dropping alchemist fire doesn't work. It can only be thrown up to 20 feet, and a Tarrasque can easily ready an action to jump when you come in range, and attack using a legendary action, and now you're swallowed and dead.

Wait, so you allow the Tarrasque to throw boulders, even though it is pretty much dumb as a brick and it has no ranged attacks in its writeup, but you don't allow the PCs to drop a vial of acid (alchemist fire doesn't work because it is fire, not because it has a range maximum for being thrown by small / medium creatures) from 150 feet up, flying above the extremely large Tarrasque? That seems like fairly inflexible adjudication.

*And no, this is not a strawman (which you often claim when an example is not 100% exactly as you wrote it), it's a simple question based on the conversation at hand.*

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Seagulls have figured out that they can open clams by dropping them onto the ground--and seagulls are universally regarded as the village idiots of the avian world.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

It'll take one big seagull to crack Big T.

 

[Tormyr]

I agree, the lack of a ranged weapon in the statblock is an oversight which leaves the monster open to accusations of being a pushover in 'white room' scenarios.

If I were running the monster, I would add a ranged attack. It would probably represent the monster sweeping around with its tail in order to throw small hills, villages, mountains, and other PCs at the flying PCs.

Alternatively, I would allow it to jump. And I would certainly say that the stomach acid of a Tarrasque counts as magical, so any clay golems or similar creatures are likely to be swallowed and cease being an issue. But that's how I'd approach it.

It is a CR30 monster. It needs plot devices to kill unless you yourself are operating at that level... and even level 20 PCs ain't. Although a Cleric calling on divine intervention might be able to scare it off.

Acid heals a clay golem.

 

[Mistwell]

Wait, so you allow the Tarrasque to throw boulders, even though it is pretty much dumb as a brick

It's not dumb as a brick. There are 1 Int creatures, and even they have some intelligence. It's a standard animal intelligence - it can toss stuff at you if you annoy it, just like any big animal can do.

Here, Rhinos have a 2 Int in the MM, and here is a real life one tossing a warthog:

[video=youtube_share;M8yN1sNxWg8]http://youtu.be/M8yN1sNxWg8[/video]

and it has no ranged attacks in its writeup

It's assumed the DM is capable of using the general rules for all things, monsters and PCs. Improvised weapons are part of the rules. So are the shove and grapple action for instance, neither of which are in most monster writeups either. You're not a slave to the write-up, since particularly in this edition the authors give the DM a range of additional tools which are used where appropriate for any encounter.

, but you don't allow the PCs to drop a vial of acid (alchemist fire doesn't work because it is fire, not because it has a range maximum for being thrown by small / medium creatures) from 150 feet up

I would actually, but I am replying to someone who says he goes strictly by the write-up, and strictly by the write-up he can't. And if he is flexible enough to expand beyond the write-up for dropping alchemist fire, then it's fair game to use the improvised ranged attack in response. You don't get it both ways - you can't apply to strict-write-up when it benefits your position, and then flexibility outside the write-up when that pleases you. Either we're strict, or not. He has to pick one.

 

[JasonZZ]

My biggest complaint about the Tarrasque is the lack of a radiation-based breath weapon. Seriously, what self-respecting kaiju *doesn't* have some kind of special weapon?

 

[KarinsDad]

It's not dumb as a brick. There are 1 Int creatures, and even they have some intelligence. It's a standard animal intelligence - it can toss stuff at you if you annoy it, just like any big animal can do.

Here, Rhinos have a 2 Int in the MM, and here is a real life one tossing a warthog:

The person you were responding to was discussing the Tarrasque throwing things like rocks at foes. Moving a creature with a horn attack (i.e. melee attack with forced movement included) is very very different than picking up a rock and throwing it at that creature. When you post a video of a rhino tossing a rock at the warthog, then your Int 3 argument holds more water. As is, apples and oranges between the two (or in your terminology, a strawman since throwing a creature as part of a melee attack was not the other poster's claim).

At the level of animal intelligence where creatures consistently throw objects at other creatures, one is more at the Ape level (Int 6) or Baboon (Int 4). No doubt a Tarrasque could throw things and has the physical tools to do so, it just wouldn't be SOP for such a creature since he has no fellow creatures of his own species to emulate. Most attacking creatures would not use thrown weapons against it (arrows, bolts, and spells are not thrown). For the vast majority of creatures it would ever face, any of them using thrown weapons would be so close that they would quickly die.

Learning tends to be done via emulation with low intelligence creatures and sorry, the Tarrasque typically just doesn't have any role models for throwing things at foes.

Grabbing foes? Sure. Lot's of Int 0 creatures grab things for food.

Throwing an object if not trying to hit a target with the object? Possibly.

Shoving a foe? Unlikely, but if it really wanted the foe away from it, sure.

It's assumed the DM is capable of using the general rules for all things, monsters and PCs. Improvised weapons are part of the rules. So are the shove and grapple action for instance, neither of which are in most monster writeups either. You're not a slave to the write-up, since particularly in this edition the authors give the DM a range of additional tools which are used where appropriate for any encounter.

Agreed.

I would actually, but I am replying to someone who says he goes strictly by the write-up, and strictly by the write-up he can't. And if he is flexible enough to expand beyond the write-up for dropping alchemist fire, then it's fair game to use the improvised ranged attack in response. You don't get it both ways - you can't apply to strict-write-up when it benefits your position, and then flexibility outside the write-up when that pleases you. Either we're strict, or not. He has to pick one.

It's fair game, but again, an Int 3 creature tends to not be the brightest bulb on the planet. To learn how to throw objects at targets, it would need some creature to show it how to do so first. Repeatedly. IMO. Any given DM can feel free to have a Tarrasque stand on its head too, but I wouldn't have it do such a trick either.


Throwing an object at something is levels of intelligence above just randomly throwing something.


With regard to Elephants have Int 3 in the book (someone else brought this up), that's just bad research. Elephants have one of the best non-human brains on the planet due to size, mass, and neuron complexity. Elephants should easily be Int 5 or 6.

Elephant cognition

 

[SilverfireSage]

Throwing an object at something is levels of intelligence above just randomly throwing something.


With regard to Elephants have Int 3 in the book (someone else brought this up), that's just bad research. Elephants have one of the best non-human brains on the planet due to size, mass, and neuron complexity. Elephants should easily be Int 5 or 6.

Elephant cognition

I agree with you, and Elephants are fast being considered one of the more intelligent species on the planet. However, arguing over something like an arbitrary number giving an abstraction of intelligence based on a scale from 0-30 isn't going to get us anywhere. There is nowhere in the rules that say how much intelligence specifically each number allows for, so arguing about it is a pointless endeavor. I would rule that the Tarrasque, being one of the oldest and most powerful beasts on the planet, have the capability to throw things in order to damage them.

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree with you, and Elephants are fast being considered one of the more intelligent species on the planet. However, arguing over something like an arbitrary number giving an abstraction of intelligence based on a scale from 0-30 isn't going to get us anywhere. There is nowhere in the rules that say how much intelligence specifically each number allows for, so arguing about it is a pointless endeavor. I would rule that the Tarrasque, being one of the oldest and most powerful beasts on the planet, have the capability to throw things in order to damage them.

And that would be a fair and reasonable ruling. Just like ruling that creatures below certain intelligence levels will not do so is a fair and reasonable ruling (since throwing something at something else is considered using a tool).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Everyone arguing about tarrasques throwing rocks is missing the point IMO. The question isn't, "What do I (the DM) do when the party starts flying over the tarrasque dropping vials of acid for 20 minutes." The question is, "How do I design a tarrasque encounter so that the party has to defeat it in a fun and challenging encounter?" A tarrasque is a near-mythical creature that emerges from the unknown once a century to wreak havoc. Make it destroy the party's home city, so every round the party is dropping acid (heh) the tarrasque is killing a dozen of their friends and distant relatives, and when it gets to half health it just leaves at like 140 ft per round or burrows underground, and comes back after a long rest to resume the mayhem. Or make it attack them in the wilderness when they're low on supplies. Or heck, let them plan out their Flawless Plan and then toss in a tiny wrench, like, say, the tarrasque is invulnerable to acid too, or there are some flying demons who really want to see it tear stuff up and will give it unasked-for air support.