Is this an Attack of Opportunity?

[Artoomis]

It is always the action itself that indicates whether you are lowering your guard in a threatened square. It is never the circumstances of where enemies are around you when you perform the action...

That's actually not quite always true. Witness creatures with 0 reach.

Anyway, I think the rules simply did not take into account reaching into someone's square like this.

 

[Caliban]

That's actually not quite always true. Witness creatures with 0 reach.

Anyway, I think the rules simply did not take into account reaching into someone's square like this.

I personally rule that reaching into someone's square provokes an AoO from that person. (Reaching is as opposed to attacking with a touch spell or weapon.)

However, in this instance the person is unconcious and would be an ally even if they were concious. (Would be a problem if you were confused about whose square you were reaching to though, as can happen with illusion magic.)

That's just the way it looks to me, I'm not really looking to get involved in another intense debate.

 

[beepeearr]

Now show me where in the rules it states that you can reach into an occupied square in the first place, and nowhere can I find that they absolutely never provoke an attack of opportunity.

I can give you an example of a "not an action" that would though. A reach 0 creature takes a five foot step into an occupied square to make an attack. A five foot step is defined as a "no action" action, on the action list, but will provoke an attack of opportunity in an unusual situation.

Just in case you missed it.

 

[Artoomis]

I personally rule that reaching into someone's square provokes an AoO from that person. (Reaching is as opposed to attacking with a touch spell or weapon.)

However, in this instance the person is unconcious and would be an ally even if they were concious. (Would be a problem if you were confused about whose square you were reaching to though, as can happen with illusion magic.)

That's just the way it looks to me, I'm not really looking to get involved in another intense debate.

That's a perfectly reasonable way to approach this. I would allow an AoO even in this case, but that's just a judgement call.

 

[beepeearr]

There is an enemy standing over the unconscious ally occupying the same square the cleric is reaching into that is the heart of the disscusion.

Good to see the Yeti to mine and Artoomis's Knights make an appearance though.

 

[FireLance]

I'm going to weigh in on the "No AOO" side of this argument.

I don't see how the "reaching into an opponent's square" argument is valid. A kobold Fighter 4/Sor 1/Dragon Disciple (red) 10 might be immune to fire, and might make his spellcraft check to recognize that an opposing spellcaster cast scalding touch, a touch attack spell that deals 13d6 of fire damage, but he still doesn't get an AOO against that spellcaster if he tries to make a touch attack against the Small kobold, or his Medium fiendish dire weasel mount, or his Diminutive toad familiar (assuming it fell out of its master's pocket and is now hopping around on the ground).

Similarly, I don't see how the "distraction" argument is valid. Why is focusing your attention to reach down and touch a prone ally more distracting than focusing your attention to reach down and attack a Tiny opponent? If it is more distracting, why does the spellcaster only provoke an AOO from the opponent in the square he's reaching into? In the unfortunate event that he is surrounded by opponents, shouldn't every opponent get an AOO since the spellcaster is performing a distracting act?

If I were to give a game effect to the interference posed by an enemy standing over an ally that you want to heal, I wouldn't do it by giving the eneny an AOO. I'd probably use something like what Thanee suggested: the action to touch your ally is no longer automatic. Instead, you'd have to make a touch attack roll, and the enemy gives cover.

 

[Artoomis]

...If I were to give a game effect to the interference posed by an enemy standing over an ally that you want to heal, I wouldn't do it by giving the eneny an AOO. I'd probably use something like what Thanee suggested: the action to touch your ally is no longer automatic. Instead, you'd have to make a touch attack roll, and the enemy gives cover.

Another fairly reasonable approach. The lack of good guidance in the RAW forces us to make our own judgement calls here.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now show me where in the rules it states that you can reach into an occupied square in the first place, and nowhere can I find that they absolutely never provoke an attack of opportunity.

Show me where in the rules it states that you cannot reach into an occupied square. In order to prevent Reach, you have to illustrate a rule that prevents Reach.


You can reach in all you want. That's what the word Reach allows. If you do so with an attack, you may or may not be AoOed depending on whether the action you are doing provokes AoOs. If you do so without an attack, you may or may not be AoOed depending on whether the action you are doing provokes AoOs.

It's the action that determines if an AoO occurs.

Reaching in, in and of itself, is not a determining factor on AoOs. The action you are performing is the determining factor.

Show me where in the rules it states that Reaching In will result in an AoO because you are Reaching In.


"Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0, meaning that they cannot reach into adjacent squares."

So, if you have a natural reach of 5, you can reach into adjacent squares. If you have a natural reach of 10, you can reach two squares over.

"Space/Reach: ... The number after the slash is the creature's natural reach."

Plus, the touch spell rules allow you to touch your ally in the next square over as long as nothing blocks you (e.g. a Wall of Force). They explicitly give you the ability to reach into the next square to touch an ally.

I can give you an example of a "not an action" that would though. A reach 0 creature takes a five foot step into an occupied square to make an attack. A five foot step is defined as a "no action" action, on the action list, but will provoke an attack of opportunity in an unusual situation.

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine sized creatures are the only Reach 0 creatures I am aware of.

They take the AoO for moving into the opponent's square as per page 149 of the PHB.

They do not take the AoO for taking a 5 foot step.

So no, you have yet to come up with an example of a "No Action" action resulting in an AoO within the rules.


There are a lot of examples of where the action you are doing with the No Action action will provoke. For example, concentrating to cast a spell on a moving horse. If you are in a threatened area, you provoke for casting the spell. You do not provoke for the No Action action of concentrating to cast on a moving horse.

 

[Artoomis]

Telas:

This has been quite a discussion. Do you have enough input yet?

 

[Telas]

Telas:

This has been quite a discussion. Do you have enough input yet?

Hell, yes. I'm proud of my five-page (and growing) thread.

I know where my opinion is on the matter. I'm just curious as to what the rest of y'all think, and how you got there.

Regardless of what side you pick on this debate, you kinda have to split hairs. I don't think there's a really clear answer to it, hence five pages of discussion.

Thanks again to everyone who posted. And a special thanks to everyone who thought of flaming, but didn't.

Telas